Ayaan Hirsi Ali on how we are fighting islam

[squeezewax]

some of you may be familiar with this woman? if not, look her up.
she makes some great points here in the interview on fox news[sorry!]

she sees how ridiculous it is that the media and politicians keep saying that the extremism is seperate from islam, it's not!
she mentions we are fighting extremism the wrong way but there is a better way.

she believes there is a vaccuum and western values need to be instilled into young people.[well thats what i think she is saying?]
it makes sense. however for many years i've believed that more and more western children don't have western values instilled into them by their parents, so what hope have non-western kids that are living in the west?

http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/01/08/ayaan-hirsi-ali-we-are-fighting-asymmetric-war-radical-islam

 

[Lovestorm]

"Yeah, but...damn it. Can't call her racist."

- Sherdog Leftoids

 

[Damien Karras]

"White washing is the only solution!"
-KKK

 

[AlucardNatasrd]

I find it highly suspect we can instill Western values into people who are not Western people.

All cultures derive from the nature of a people. It seems to me entirely unjustified to think we can be sure that people entirely distinct from us can adapt to our way of life, or more crucially, keep it growing.

Let each people retain their unique identities in their own lands.

 

[AlucardNatasrd]

"Yeah, but...damn it. Can't call her racist."

- Sherdog Leftoids

The Left managed to turn George Zimmerman into a white man to call him racist. Sooo...

 

[OldGoat]

Come on now, you know this isn't going to be tolerated.

Inb4 dump.

 

[europe1]

If we go to moderate, secular muslims and say that - as Hirsi claims - the Salafi interpretation is the correct and sole interpretation of Islam, and that they have to admit that, how will those people then react?

 

[Zankou]

I'm not sure that's her position. I recall having read something where she talked about how Somalia when she grew up was relatively tolerant until the Saudi influence started coming in and funding Islamic religious functions, which predictably morphed into Islamic political functions.

I assume, but do not know, that her point is that both the Qur'an and the sunnah of the prophet are unacceptable, and there is as yet no feasible way within Islam to openly disregard or reject them (akin to how modern Christians claim almost all of the OT has been superseded) other than to be secularized.

For example, there are no good Islamic reasons to criticize killing an artist for disrespecting Mohammed, when Mohammed is reported as having done exactly that himself (asking for a disrespectful poet to be killed and the praising the killer). That was Mo's sunnah, point blank. Troubled by this, some modern Muslims have tried to reject the authenticity of the Hadith reporting this, but that cannot be done without rejecting the complicated traditional apparatus of Hadith validity analysis, which would leave much of what Muslims know as "Islam" in tatters. The whole thing about Aisha's age when Mo sexed her is another area where you have seen attempts to challenge the validity of the corresponding Hadith, but again it has met with wide rejection because very little is left of the Hadith if such multiply attested Hadith can be thrown out. You approach something like Qur'anism at that point.

 

[europe1]

I assume, but do not know, that her point is that both the Qur'an and the sunnah of the prophet are unacceptable, and there is as yet no feasible way within Islam to openly disregard or reject them (akin to how modern Christians claim almost all of the OT has been superseded) other than to be secularized.

By "be secularized", what excactly do you mean? Atheist?

That was kind of my question though. If we engage moderate, secular muslims who hold the Quran and sunnah sacred, in a discussion that those texts are inherently unaccectable and evil, how will they react?

 

[Zankou]

Most Muslims are sort of cultural, not religious. They are like Christians who go to church once a year, on Easter. And thus they are largely free of the more troubling aspects of their religious heritage.

That is how, as I understand it, Somalia used to be. The trouble is less more or less radical versions of Islam than it is more or less intensive and pervasive versions of Islam ... That is probably what Ali is coming from.

It is the growing collapse of lax, secular leaning Muslim identity that is the biggest problem.

 

[AgeofEmpires2**]

I also think it has to do with our tribalism aspect.

Here in America, some get in fights over football teams. They're the spectators.
In Europe, the same thing happens for their soccer teams. They're the spectators.
For Muslims, some blow themselves up for their Koran team- and those guys are looked at as the professional athletes.

Terrorism- it's just their version of professional sports yo.

 

[europe1]

It is the growing collapse of lax, secular leaning Muslim identity that is the biggest problem.

Then shouldn't we be trying to promote and revitalize this version of Islam instead of attacking all of Islam then, as Hirsi suggests? If we attack all of Islam we will degrade "secular islam" as well. And we'll probably do a lot more damage to "secular Islam" than we will do to "Salafi Islam" by persuing this strategy. Hell, we'll probably strenghten Salafi Islam by persuing this strategy.

 

[Zankou]

We probably should, agreed, the idea of battling Islam itself is crazy. Really the key is to establish secularism, but that is the very challenge in a nutshell.

It is also important to be selective because Muslims are first and foremost people, and should not be reduced to their religious identity.

In addition, there continues to be a sort of internal grassroots reform of Islam in the modern west, radically reinterpreting the texts ("Mohammed forbid slavery" "Islam was the first to grant women's rights"). This is fairly illogical and ridiculous as a historical matter, but that's never stopped religion before, and so I tentatively hope this selective non-scholarly rereading of Islam becomes increasingly influential. The scholars who actually know the texts are the problem ... Laymen barely know anything about their texts, and on the whole that is probably a good thing.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

Mark Steyn has been criticizing Islam for years. He even had to go to court in Canada over an article he published in Maclean's Magazine.

He had a great interview with Sean Hannity where he calls out the cowards in the leftist media for continuing to portray Muslims as victims after a terrorist attack. He also condemned CNN and MSNBC for failing to show the french cartoons.

That interview can be watched at this link: Media Is Maneuvering Islam into the Victim Seat

Here is an interview he did the night before:

 

[Hollywood Nicky]

some of you may be familiar with this woman? if not, look her up.
she makes some great points here in the interview on fox news[sorry!]

she sees how ridiculous it is that the media and politicians keep saying that the extremism is seperate from islam, it's not!
she mentions we are fighting extremism the wrong way but there is a better way.

she believes there is a vaccuum and western values need to be instilled into young people.[well thats what i think she is saying?]
it makes sense. however for many years i've believed that more and more western children don't have western values instilled into them by their parents, so what hope have non-western kids that are living in the west?

http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/01/08/ayaan-hirsi-ali-we-are-fighting-asymmetric-war-radical-islam

how can you instill western values when we are invading their countries based on lies, propping up dictators, allowing israel to steal palestine, etc etc etc? when we show we follow western values perhaps we will have enough credibility to ask it of them imo.

 

[Zankou]

how can you instill western values when we are invading their countries based on lies, propping up dictators, allowing israel to steal palestine, etc etc etc? when we show we follow western values perhaps we will have enough credibility to ask it of them imo.

One way is to point out that the countries which have suffered least from Western invasion, and which are most Islamist, are the biggest shitholes of them all, and have gotten worse and worse the more they have turned away from Western values.

Pakistan being Exhibit A on the destruction of a once-promising country at the hands of Islamism.

Turkey currently in the process of converting itself into a shithole.

Also, all those actions you complain of were in large part fomented and financed by the most Islamic regimes of all, particularly Saudi Arabia. Are people supposed to forget that the worst war of the last 30 years was a Sunni Arab assault on Shiite Iran? Are people supposed to forget that it was the Gulf Arabs who were baying for Saddam's destruction when he threatened their safety, and who pushed for and achieved his ouster? The idea that this was all just Westerners prancing about amongst ignorant brown folk is incredibly counterfactual -- if anybody takes a clear-eyed look at how the Islamist regimes have behaved, it has been reprehensible.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

One way is to point out that the countries which have suffered least from Western invasion, and which are most Islamist, are the biggest shitholes of them all, and have gotten worse and worse the more they have turned away from Western values.

Pakistan being Exhibit A on the destruction of a once-promising country at the hands of Islamism.

Turkey currently in the process of converting itself into a shithole.

Lmao!!

Check, and mate.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

One way is to point out that the countries which have suffered least from Western invasion, and which are most Islamist, are the biggest shitholes of them all, and have gotten worse and worse the more they have turned away from Western values.

Pakistan being Exhibit A on the destruction of a once-promising country at the hands of Islamism.

Turkey currently in the process of converting itself into a shithole.

however, just to play Devil's advocate, what about the UAE?

They seem to be doing very well. (thanks to an abundance of oil of course) but it's still a Muslim nation, right?

 

[Devout Pessimist]

I'm going to post one more Mark Steyn interview done with the CBC (Canada). The interview is 27 minutes, but I think its very fair. There is the interviewer who is an Muslim apologist, there is Mark Steyn who is extremely critical of Islam, and you have a Muslim leader Mohamed El Rashidy giving his opinion.

The other interesting difference is that there is 27 minutes and everyone gets to voice their opinion, unlike popular U.S. news where you have 6 people yelling at each other for 5 minutes.

 

[jeffk]

Problems with that idea is that people in counties like Saudi Arabia who might want to make the argument that will get flogged.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/08/saudi-arabia-blogger-raif-badawi-public-flogging

Raif Badawi was sentenced on charges related to accusations that he insulted Islam on a liberal online forum he had created. He was also ordered by the Jeddah criminal court to pay a fine of 1m Saudi riyals, or about $266,000.

The hardcore devotees will say either their country is a shithole because they aren't praying hard enough or there are some outside group that is conspiring to fvck up their people's lives. In other words, they aren't likely to be self critical and will arrest those who are.