Movies AVATAR: THE WAY OF WATER (Dragonlord's Review, post #1)

If you have seen AVATAR: THE WAY OF WATER, how would you rate it?


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I just saw it today. Waaaay too long. 3.2 hours. WTF..I didn't know my bladder was that big, holding in pee for hours. First one was better IMO.
 
For anyone feeling so bored with modern movies and their dumbed down approach to everything like this one. I can recommend watching Alien 1 in 4k after that at home. We did and were blown away how good that movie still is. Really looking forward to a new 4k remaster of Camerons Alien 2.

Also why always this talk and boasting about how much money a movie makes? I don't get it. It's a very american forum thing. Does that make the movie better for you? It's a very strange fixation on money even when we talk about art.
 
I've heard that he may actually pass the director's chair over to someone else after the third film in 2024 in order to work on other things he wants to do.

<Oku03>

I'm (very) doubtfully optimistic, to say the least.



It has no impact whatsoever, but I haven't even seen the first film this is based on yet. I'm focused on the finances because I'm rooting for Cameron to shit all over the face of his fucking loser ass detractors. He does this again and again and again, it's very humorous.
That was my point. How is he shitting on anyone just because he makes a lot of money. By thinking like that you also start to rate movies by financial success which is incredible shallow. I get it,it's the American way if attaching value to something by how much money it makes. It's just nonsense to even care about this stuff if you are not Cameron himself.

I very much enjoyed some of Camerons movies but Avatar 1 and 2 are ,even for mainstream approach, as dumbed down in dialog,narrative and plot summary that I think it's the weakest he has ever done. Including made money doesn't change that at all
 
visually it's a beautiful movie, plot is slightly better than the first by not much

would watch again in 4k
 
Because there is an entire horde hoping it financially fails (not necessarily on this forum). I have no idea why people care about things they don't like. I don't care for comic book cape shit movies, so I don't watch them. I don't think about them. I don't talk about them and this post is the most that I ever have, it's a total void.

The box office really has no impact on the art, pretty sure I've never even discussed it until a few days ago although I do tend to look at movies predominantly as entertainment. I'll get analytical, discriminating and serious over serious things to me, i.e. my culture, heritage and spirituality, or you know even the quality of my equipment, tools and weapons. This is pure spectacle.
Ok that clears it up. I don't wish financial failure to Cameron at all. People talk about stuff they don't like because critic is at the core of understanding mistakes. I paid money to watch Avatar 2, tremendously enjoyed some older movies from Cameron and now write why Avatar fails. We are getting to a point we're critic gets instantly labeled hate but it's just someone pointing out weak points and in the long run helps creating a better product.
 
I just saw it in 3d.

Did anyone else who saw it think the 3d elements in this seemed a bit choppy at the borders of the screen? Especially on the left side of the screen it was like I was seeing double and it got distracting.

Overall pretty good. I dont think it's much better than the first if at all.
Musta been your screen... or some communication between their medium of projecting it. I saw it on a Dolby 3D (opening night... just thowing that in there. :p) (I got me lanyard ffs... lol... not sure what I'll be doing with that...) ...Anywayz... it waz all good from my view.

Would've brought those thingz that hold glasses tight to teh head in hind-site. Got a bit tedious continually pushing me glasses up me nacho stained nose, but otherwise it waz all great visualz.
 
Musta been your screen... or some communication between their medium of projecting it. I saw it on a Dolby 3D (opening night... just thowing that in there. :p) (I got me lanyard ffs... lol... not sure what I'll be doing with that...) ...Anywayz... it waz all good from my view.

Would've brought those thingz that hold glasses tight to teh head in hind-site. Got a bit tedious continually pushing me glasses up me nacho stained nose, but otherwise it waz all great visualz.

The theatre didnt say but I think it was reald 3d. I also dont think the aspect ratio was right which might explain the problems on the edges
 
Went and watched it tonight. 6/10. That's based on the visuals alone, because the story was not good. Calling the plot paper thin, is an insult to paper. As my son put it "that's something you write in one night ".
 
Of course everyone expects the plot to be dumb and shallow and the graphics to be amazing but I'm still impressed they're able to stand out in 2023 in terms of visual quality achievement.
 
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Yeah, a lot of this movie doesn't make much sense.

If what Mrs. Soprano said was true, we would not be tolerating any resistance. If the population of Earth was really all being relocated to Pandora, we would just nuke the shit out of those little villages instead of going on search and destroy missions. Or just send drones, AI, skynet, and the whole situation is over. I felt this movie thought it was going out of its way to portray humanity in a negative light, when the truth is we're much much worse than what was portrayed. We would never allow organized resistance made up of blue monkeys. There would be no battles.

Really nothing about the tactics or larger plot made any real sense, but it was nice visually for sure.

The plot in terms of emotional content etc was actually just fine through. The big pieces didn’t make sense but the character actions given the situation were all warranted. It wasn't as disjointed as other recent blockbuster movies… Cameron knows how to make a film that flows. It wasn't wretched like Rise of Skywalker or just CGI gibberish like Transformers. There's an actual movie in there with this one, stuff that includes character development and motivations, even though it's pretty soft in the grand scheme.
 
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Yeah, a lot of this movie doesn't make much sense.

Everything makes sence to me & I'm happy to field any of this kind of commentary in hopes that it doesn't take a life of it's own for "bashing's sake" alone.

If what Mrs. Soprano said was true, we would not be tolerating any resistance.
Don't look now, but we're not. We're literally setting up base to take them out.

If the population of Earth was really all being relocated to Pandora, we would just nuke the shit out of those little villages instead of going on search and destroy missions. Or just send drones, AI, skynet, and the whole situation is over.
Obviously, you can't destroy the ecological makeup of the planet if you intend on inhabiting it. Shown in the movie is the fact that they don't even know where jake Sully is, and so after they fooked Mother Aywa'z "home tree" in teh first movie, teh Na'vi had to scatter. You can't just flatten the entire continent & then expect to rebuild a thriving civilization there.

Humanz did that to their one little spot around their base for obvious security with no place to hide as you approach... but were they to do that across the whole planet, then they would be destroying too much of the nature that sustains the planet. A lesson we know all to well by 2169 after raveging our own earth.

I felt this movie thought it was going out of its way to portray humanity in a negative light, when the truth is we're much much worse than what was portrayed. We would never allow organized resistance made up of blue monkeys. There would be no battles.

How else would you do it?

Your point is valid for the first movie if you intend on just mining it, but now they intend on inhabiting it, & even the hardest head in the bunch understands you have to maintain an ecology to the planet if it's to sustain itself. Especially with all our demands.

"Circular consistency of resources" is a real thing in any ecology. On earth we stripped the farm lands of vegetation & sprayed them with chemicals so long that we can't even grow on there any more. We poop out any natural resources after we eat them, but don't try to return it to the earth, it ends up over-burdening the water-ways instead of returning it to the earth. We've gotten all this wrong on earth & that's why it's uninhabitable in 2169. So we don't want to go in & straight up flatten the entire ecosystem of teh new planet we're trying to occupy.

At least someone seems to had thought about that.
Really nothing about the tactics or larger plot made any real sense, but it was nice visually for sure.

Im not sure you understood their need to preserve Aywa. They don't want to try & inhabit a barren Nuclear bombed property, they want to maintain aywa as best they can, (given a few exceptions) but their whole tactical plan has now been limited to the preservation of the eco-system they intend to take over, while removing the natural inhabitants.

Think on these things. I feel your first reaction might had overlooked some key fundamentalz.
 
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Visually impressive, but the movie was pretty bad because of the story. It was too basic, with too many holes in the plot to make it more enjoyable.

so Jake sully just decided to leave the forest people all because of a few marine avatars? (Which also looked ridiculous with their various army outfits. And what those forest people all of a sudden stop their insuregency and go to peace? It makes absolutely no sense as that general Carmella is still trying to take over the planet and was fighting the forest people. Plus at the end he says we make our stand with the water people and shit, but hasn’t he been help arm the forest people with guns and other stuff by raiding trains and such? Why not all fight back?

plus with the outcast whale, he already launched a counter attack in the whalers with both Navi and whales….. but somehow none of the reef people and other whales knew of them?

Plus the forest people never seen the reef people when they are only a nights flight from them? And how the fuck that helicopter get to them so fast when that dork had never been to the reef before. Only point of that scene was to point out western medicine bad.

for spending like over 10 years in this, they could have fleshed out the plot a lot more.

edit: and the worst part was they said spider was “feral” but then he and the teenage Navi males basically talk like high school Americans. “Come in bro, bro, bro bro bro,”. So dumb
 
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and the worst part was they said spider was “feral” but then he and the teenage Navi males basically talk like high school Americans. “Come in bro, bro, bro bro bro,”. So dumb

As an adopted child, it really amounts to being a useless insult to use that slang against him. For all purposes, he was raised a true Na'vi.

Visually impressive, but the movie was pretty bad because of the story. It was too basic, with too many holes in the plot to make it more enjoyable.

Basic story noted, but not an issue for me with the rich side stories, but also the many nuances kept me intrigued.

Obviously it was incredibly well made visually, and so if we're dismissing it for there not being a thick plot, then I'd say it's thick enough for me. Cameron's did say one was done as a baseline and so the plot is forecasted to get more "complicated" moving forward.

so Jake sully just decided to leave the forest people all because of a few marine avatars?

Not exactly.

Big bad was specifically targetting Jake and was the biggest threat they'd seen, and so his decision to leave was justified as he recognized that the heaviest resistance would follow him.

Your point is just, though in that he didn't do anything with it. The plot hole is that Jake thought he could just stay with the Metkayina & that was the apex of his plan. He did say that he didn't have a plan though.

He should've known they would hunt him down & thus jeopardize the other clans and so should've been preparing for that immanent attack. So his retreat from leaving the forest people (whom he already trained & could maintain themselves), was good, but the lack of plan after that is where that one thing starts looking like a plot-hole. We could call it a scared new dad though. it's just a poor decision, but we came full circle by the end of the movie and so now he's ready to be more tactical.

And what those forest people all of a sudden stop their insuregency and go to peace?

The war in the forest obviously didn't stop, it's understood that the General's primary objective continued to try & occupy the forest while Jake had trained the forest Na'vi & left their care in the hands of their new leader.

Why not all fight back?
They've been fighting back for years, and they know the capacity of their oppressors, as well as the power that this new team of predators brings to the table. splitting them out from home base was a solid strategy but he should've been ready for it.

As mentioned, The "hunkering down" afterwards was the problem. Leaving the big bad wolf to just keep hunting him was the undersight & the only main plot hole in the movie, though it could be said he was just blinded by the protection of his family while he was working it all out. At the end of this movie, Jake seems to be in the place he should've been when he left to begin with, but no biggie on the time it took. We're there now, & big bad got a big bad spanking in the meantime.

plus with the outcast whale, he already launched a counter attack in the whalers with both Navi and whales….. but somehow none of the reef people and other whales knew of them?
I'd have to have this pov explained further, I'm not following your timeline here. The outcasts attack was when he was a cub decades ago after his mother got harpooned, but everyone was aware of that, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Plus the forest people never seen the reef people when they are only a nights flight from them?
Jake & teh leader of teh reef people literally called each other by name when they first met in this movie. Jake knew him as a tough leader. Jake & Naytiri both called the queen by name when they met & Jake commented that he knew she was the one he'd have to get approval from. They even knew jake was Toroc Makto. So it seems this gripe is off the table.


And how the fuck that helicopter get to them so fast when that dork had never been to the reef before. Only point of that scene was to point out western medicine bad.
The "quickness" the helicopter got there was a "movie flash", we don't know how long it took them to contact & them him to get there.

It was also the only way big bad knew where to go to find Jake, so it did serve as a plot device.
 
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"Feral" was simply a derogatory term some used to describe a Na'vi who was not natural born. Anyone's "slang use" of that term in the movie, does not make the acceptance of Spider any less valid. He grew up in their society as an "adopted one of them from birth." As an adopted child, it really amounts to being a useless insult to use that slang against him. For all intensive purposes, he was raised a true Na'vi.



Basic story noted, but not an issue for me with the rich side stories, but also the many nuances kept me intrigued.

Obviously it was incredibly well made visually, and so if we're dismissing it for there not being a thick plot, then I'd refer to Cameron's declaration that this was done as a baseline and so the plot is forecasted to get more "complicated" moving forward.



Not exactly.

Big bad was specifically targetting Jake and was the biggest threat they'd seen, and so his decision to leave was justified as he recognized that the heaviest resistance would follow him.

Your point is just, but not quite hitting the target. The plot hole is that Jake thought he could just stay with the Metkayina & that was the apex of his plan. He should've known they would hunt him down & thus jeopardize the other clans and so should've been preparing for that immanent attack. So his retreat from leaving the forest people (whom he already trained & could maintain themselves), was good, but the lack of plan after that is where that one thing starts looking like a plot-hole. We could call it a scared new dad though. it's just a poor decision, but we came full circle by the end of the movie and so now he's ready to be more tactical.



The war in the forest obviously didn't stop, it's understood that the General's primary objective continued to try & occupy the forest while Jake had trained the forest Na'vi & left their care in the hands of their new leader. They even did a ceremony on screen to show the passing of leadership.

They've been fighting back for years, and they know very well the capacity of their oppressors, as well as the power that this new team of predators brings to the table. splitting was a great strategy to keep the whole war from happening on their land. He basically split their military in half while only removing himself & his family.

As mentioned, The "hunkering down" afterwards was the problem. Leaving the big bad wolf to just keep blowing teh other piggies houses down was the undersight & the only main plot hole in the movie, though it could be said he was just blinded by the protection of his family while he was working on another idea. At the end of this movie, Jake seems to be in the place he should've been when he left to begin with, but no biggie on the time it took. We're there now, & big bad got a big bad spanking in the meantime.


I'd have to have this pov explained further, I'm not following your timeline here. The outcasts attack was when he was a cub decades ago after his mother got harpooned, but everyone was aware of that, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.


Jake & teh leader of teh reef people literally called each other by name when they first met in this movie. Jake knew him as a tough leader. Jake & Naytiri both called the queen by name when they met & Jake commented that he knew she was the one he'd have to get approval from. They even knew jake was Toroc Makto. So it seems this gripe is off the table. I expect many of your gripes would be solved by a closer review.



The "quickness" the helicopter got there was a "movie flash", we don't know how long it took them to contact & them him to get there.

It was also the only way big bad knew where to go to find Jake, so it was not a "single plot item."

dude, at the end of the movie he literally is talking about how the reef is now their home and where they make their stand.

he is throwing all of the forest people under the bus, who are actually much more better trained and armed than the reef people and if anything, he should directly go back there and meet with the science dorks who magically flew out there to coordinate their next move. Especially when the earth comm center is in that area anyways and they will have to take back that territory.

I mean, the experience in IMAX 3D was great and the sound system really helped the movie a lot. I don’t think I could sit through that on my home TV tho cause the story was weak.

just IMO
 
dude, at the end of the movie he literally is talking about how the reef is now their home and where they make their stand.
What a beautiful song Naytiri closed teh movie out with~

I took it differently as to mean that it's head to head action from here out. He acknowledged that he didn't have his shit together when he tried to run & hide, but he's not running any more. Either way you look at it, they know where he is & or if they don't come after him, I don't see how they're not going to be proactive to attack that colony that's killing their whales.

Cameron shared that they're introducing teh "Ash Na'vi" next movie, "fire people" as a slang. (riding a phoenix? :eek:) and they are the first war mongering Na'vi we'll be introduced to, so it will be interesting to see how attention is divided among Na'vi, or unified to stopping the colonization of humanz. Maybe teh ash people don't give a fook about mother Eywa & see her growth as a disease that they want to put out & so they join teh humanz. lol... I'm just spitballing here.

he is throwing all of the forest people under the bus, who are actually much more better trained and armed than the reef people and if anything, he should directly go back there and meet with the science dorks who magically flew out there to coordinate their next move.
I hear ya. My ideal scenario would've been this latest movie, he parks his kidz somewhere safe & then does his Toruk Makto thing hopping from village to village starting at the far back & working their way toward the forest, so that when big bad gets to teh perimeter, they're met by unchallengable millions of air & aqua forces.

That army smokes big bad like a blunt & then continues on into their compound & destroyz teh hole fooking human presence.

Next movie Rambo showz up as an avitar riding a balrog.
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& teh evil ash people double cross the Na'vi & feel like human occupation is a better future for them? Not sure how this is going to play out, but teh bad intentioned ash Na'vi are on deck.

However it is, I get that Jake fooked up thinking he could hide, and it does come off as a plot hole, but it doesn't ruin the movie for me.

I got over the fact that the more dogs that run into the wakanda shield, that it will compromise the shield, and that so many dogs could be let in during the break that it was flooding them. Had that not happened, Thanos never does teh glove snap. I did just overlook that though in order to enjoy the story being told. Or how the most advance civilization on earth with planet killing technology could change rulers by being called out in a fist fight... lol... I mean at some point, you just gotta let some of that stuff slip by if you want to enjoy anything. There's very few movies of this calibur that got it all right.

I'll give you that one thing as a plot hole. Everything else seems fine to me.
Especially when the earth comm center is in that area anyways and they will have to take back that territory.
Yeah, for sure that's happening. No way they let em keep hunting their kindred whalez.

I mean, the experience in IMAX 3D was great and the sound system really helped the movie a lot. I don’t think I could sit through that on my home TV tho cause the story was weak.
I've seen it 3 timez. The attraction for me is largely experiencing the world. The family vibe etc, and meanwhile you got big bad comin atcha. I can dig that plot in itself if it's well made. Primitive tribes on earth today are going through being pushed out of their land. It's a sad story that I really feel for. I can only imagine how it must feel to wake up one day to being forced out of the home your ancestors have lived on for thousands of years. That's a dynamic that keeps me interested in and of itself as well.

I'm loving me some Eywa too btw. Makes me give an inner smile to Lady Gaia right now thinking about it.
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What a beautiful song Naytiri closed teh movie out with~

I took it differently as to mean that it's head to head action from here out. He acknowledged that he didn't have his shit together when he tried to run & hide, but he's not running any more. Either way you look at it, they know where he is & or if they don't come after him, I don't see how they're not going to be proactive to attack that colony that's killing their whales.

Cameron shared that they're introducing teh "Ash Na'vi" next movie, "fire people" as a slang. (riding a phoenix? :eek:) and they are the first war mongering Na'vi we'll be introduced to, so it will be interesting to see how attention is divided among Na'vi, or unified to stopping the colonization of humanz. Maybe teh ash people don't give a fook about mother Eywa & see her growth as a disease that they want to put out & so they join teh humanz. lol... I'm just spitballing here.


I hear ya. My ideal scenario would've been this latest movie, he parks his kidz somewhere safe & then does his Toruk Makto thing hopping from village to village starting at the far back & working their way toward the forest, so that when big bad gets to teh perimeter, they're met by unchallengable millions of air & aqua forces.

That army smokes big bad like a blunt & then continues on into their compound & destroyz teh hole fooking human presence.

Next movie Rambo showz up as an avitar riding a balrog.
iu

& teh evil ash people double cross the Na'vi & feel like human occupation is a better future for them? Not sure how this is going to play out, but teh bad intentioned ash Na'vi are on deck.

However it is, I get that Jake fooked up thinking he could hide, and it does come off as a plot hole, but it doesn't ruin the movie for me.

I got over the fact that the more dogs that run into the wakanda shield, that it will compromise the shield, and that so many dogs could be let in during the break that it was flooding them. Had that not happened, Thanos never does teh glove snap. I did just overlook that though in order to enjoy the story being told. Or how the most advance civilization on earth with planet killing technology could change rulers by being called out in a fist fight... lol... I mean at some point, you just gotta let some of that stuff slip by if you want to enjoy anything. There's very few movies of this calibur that got it all right.

I'll give you that one thing as a plot hole. Everything else seems fine to me.
Yeah, for sure that's happening. No way they let em keep hunting their kindred whalez.


I've seen it 3 timez. The attraction for me is largely experiencing the world. The family vibe etc, and meanwhile you got big bad comin atcha. I can dig that plot in itself if it's well made. Primitive tribes on earth today are going through being pushed out of their land. It's a sad story that I really feel for. I can only imagine how it must feel to wake up one day to being forced out of the home your ancestors have lived on for thousands of years. That's a dynamic that keeps me interested in and of itself as well.

I'm loving me some Eywa to btw. Makes me give an inner smile to Lady Gaia right now thinking about it.
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If you look at my avatar, it is from StarCraft and I am a leet haxor, which actually pretty much makes me an expert on intergalactic colonization AND terraforming. And let me be the first to tell you that James Cameron is a fucking retard here. It makes no sense strategically


Plus the whole dreadlock connecting pathway to the warp/god is stealing Protoss lore

like how is this intro not basically avatar but a million times better?

 
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