Attention Catch Wrestlers...


Of course, those old-timers were arguably egged on to crapping on Cecchine by others looking to cash in on the catch-wrestling market.

Goofiest thing about Cecchine is his obsession with maligning another man's testicles. I personally like his work on the straight Achilles though. So many people think that an Achilles has to be cross-body or else it is useless.
 
Of course, those old-timers were arguably egged on to crapping on Cecchine by others looking to cash in on the catch-wrestling market.

Goofiest thing about Cecchine is his obsession with maligning another man's testicles. I personally like his work on the straight Achilles though. So many people think that an Achilles has to be cross-body or else it is useless.

KF, clear your PMs bro.
 
KFORCER...


I've been studying Lou Thesz and seeing that you are very knowledgeable about his style and catch in general, I thought that you could give a good insight to this question. I came across this video (I'm sure you've seen it before) but I was just wondering what you thought about this technique as far as a guard pass. It happens from 3:25-3:28 of this video. Tell me what you think when you get time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYyBw5CyfXE
 
Gotch thought a lot of people sucked. Rickson Gracie included.

See sig.

I don't take anything Furey says at face value, but he was interviewed in some MMA mag, claiming that Gotch almost had heart failure when he told him that he was going to release a DVD on Gotch-style catch wrestling. I'd believe that sort of reaction, considering Gotch eventually sold a bunch of home videos as a conditioning course himself.

As for Cecchinne, he may be a jackass when it comes to other styles, and the Gotch tape has transitions a white belt would blush at, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't find some of his material interesting.
 
I'd train in catch if there was a gym near me. Definitely. Too bad it's so rare.

Anyway I really, really don't mean to turn this into some shit slinging catch vs BJJ argument, but I have a question for both types of grapplers if they might be reading this thread.

Everyone knows BJJ teaches position before submission and etc, and that's why so many BJJ schools bar students from using leglocks until blue belt otherwise they won't learn to pass guard and blah blah blah. Cool. But my question is, if I'm in your guard and I can just fall back and snap your feet off, why do I even need to learn to pass guard? So I can armbar you? Why bother going to all that trouble just to armbar or choke somebody when you could just avoid the whole struggle to pass, and just cut right to the submission by cranking on somebody's legs?

As somebody who's new to grappling, it's something I just haven't got my head around yet. It's the thorn in my side about BJJ. Can I get some opinions on this?

Also... Kforcer rules.
 
Everyone knows BJJ teaches position before submission and etc, and that's why so many BJJ schools bar students from using leglocks until blue belt otherwise they won't learn to pass guard and blah blah blah. Cool. But my question is, if I'm in your guard and I can just fall back and snap your feet off, why do I even need to learn to pass guard? So I can armbar you? Why bother going to all that trouble just to armbar or choke somebody when you could just avoid the whole struggle to pass, and just cut right to the submission by cranking on somebody's legs?

That's an easy one. Because if you're leglock attempt is countered (and it's not really that hard if the guy knows what he's doing) you're going to find yourself in a very bad position, either mounted or having given up your back with little to no chance to counter his attacks from a superior position.
 
So I guess the next logical question is; why ever use leglocks if they're so easily countered? Why not just be a full blown Gracie JJ guy, pass, and sit there for a twenty years until a choke opens up? I don't know if I'm sounding argumentative here or not, but I'm not trying to, I'm just really curious about catch and the way catch guys think because I've always been such a mark for UWFi, PWFG, Billy Robinson, etc.
 
Leglocks work best as surprise and transition attacks in what I've seen. I actually like leglocks a lot. I like kneebars, leg laces, and the like. But the fact of the matter is, if you're unable to surprise your opponent and secure the lock, you're going to find yourself in a very disadvantageous position, or worse, allow your opponent to grab your leg. Ken Shamrock of all people figured this out back in UFC 1 when he tried to drop back for a heel hook on Royce only to be swept.

Those sorts of dramatics made good viewing, which is why they were so popular with fake orgs like UWFI and PWFG. In real fights, they don't work quite as well. They work, but there's a lot to be said about gaining position being much more reliable.
 
I train at Degerberg in Chicago.
And I do know of the Wrestling club at Quads. I'm a member but haven't made it there yet. I wanna go though so I can get my takedowns back and better.

As for leglocks, yes you do leave yourself exposed very often. That's why you need to put one on before your opponent realizes what you are doing.

I think the heel hook is probably the most devistating submision in all submission wrestling. I will take a choke till I pass out, an arm bar till my elbo hyperextends a little and hurts for a month but if you apply any pressure at all to a heal hook I tap.

The pressure in my ankle, knee and hip is ridiculaous if done right.
 
I've watched and have 3 or 4 different Catch Wrestling instructional DVD's. In my opinion Tony C's LAOH DVD's are good for beginners looking to learn the basics of Catch submissions. The downfall of the DVD's is that they dont cover any type of takedowns or very much in the way of transitions. With that in mind, I think they are not bad at all.
 
I train at Degerberg in Chicago.
And I do know of the Wrestling club at Quads. I'm a member but haven't made it there yet. I wanna go though so I can get my takedowns back and better.

As for leglocks, yes you do leave yourself exposed very often. That's why you need to put one on before your opponent realizes what you are doing.

I think the heel hook is probably the most devistating submision in all submission wrestling. I will take a choke till I pass out, an arm bar till my elbo hyperextends a little and hurts for a month but if you apply any pressure at all to a heal hook I tap.

The pressure in my ankle, knee and hip is ridiculaous if done right.

Degerberg. I've heard that place is pretty much a mcdojo and have no training in Catch.
 
Degerberg. I've heard that place is pretty much a mcdojo and have no training in Catch.

vw-ohsnap.gif
 
I've been to the Degerberg in Lincoln Square. It's a total McDojo.
 
That's an easy one. Because if you're leglock attempt is countered (and it's not really that hard if the guy knows what he's doing) you're going to find yourself in a very bad position, either mounted or having given up your back with little to no chance to counter his attacks from a superior position.

That's really not the whole story on leg-locks.

Leglocks can be applied from an almost countless number of angles, some of which are high risk some of which carry little risk at all. And if you are competent in chaining your attacks together then you should be able to follow a missed leg-lock with yet another and perhaps even another after that. Ideally, if your opponent scrambles or rolls away from your leg attacks, it can give you an opportunity to take advantage if you can react faster than him.
 
When I think leg locks I think of Masakazu Imanari because honestly he's the most successful fighter I've seen consistently use them. Does anyone know his grappling background? Is it catch or does he just happen to be a BJJer with very good leg locks?
 
Well, originally, I would have had an easy answer based on the UWFi Snake Pit products as opposed to the UWF/PWFG products. Billy Robinson, a British catch-wrestler, ran the UWF Snake Pit, where the likes of Sakuraba, Tamura, Kanehara and Takada trained at one point and where the Abe Ani Combat Club people sometimes train as well as Manabu Inoue and of course, Barnett.

However, although I was one of the people who might have helped popularize the "Robinson taught the UWFi guys including Sakuraba catch" perception, I think that Lou Thesz, amongst others, was way more involved than given credited for. Watch his matches; as I said earlier in the thread, he's the one, more than Robinson or Gotch, that has stylistic similarities to the UWFi guys. And Takada WAS trained by him, and Takada was the face of the UWFi. So it only makes sense that he would have impacted guys like Takada's good friend Sakuraba and the other UWFi'ers, if any old-school catch guy did.

There's a general stylistic distinction to be made between the UWFi-Kingdom guys and the early Pancrase guys, absolutely. The UWFi'ers generally make great use of the rolling DWL/kimura and of standing to upper-body submission transitions and traditional wrestling takedowns over the standing to leg-attack transition emphasis in many early Pancrase guys and generally, a slightly more conservative style amongst other things.

I see. But couldn't that be more of a personal style difference more then anything? Perhaps that was Gotch's own personal style rubbing off more then any difference in techniques? I dunno. I have heard people comment on which they thought was more effective. What do you think?
 
When I think leg locks I think of Masakazu Imanari because honestly he's the most successful fighter I've seen consistently use them. Does anyone know his grappling background? Is it catch or does he just happen to be a BJJer with very good leg locks?


Combat wrestling and BJJ. He's a BB.
 
When I think leg locks I think of Masakazu Imanari because honestly he's the most successful fighter I've seen consistently use them. Does anyone know his grappling background? Is it catch or does he just happen to be a BJJer with very good leg locks?

First, Imanari trained at Antonio Inoki's UFO. Was placed in Muay Thai, which he wasn't interested in. Hidetata Irie--a lesser known Japanese catch-wrestler who also was a judoka, I think--took Imanari in and taught him shoot-wrestling. Imanari excelled, finally able to do what he was interested in. Hidetata and Imanari both competed in Kingdom after the likes of Sakuraba and Kanehara had left for the greener pastures of Pride and Imanari became their lightweight champion; at least some of the Kingdom bouts that Imanari did were shoots...maybe even most of them. He entered into Combat Wrestling and was the runner-up twice...lost to Rumina Sato, but Sato encouraged him, saying that he was strong.

Along the way, Imanari became interested not only in BJJ but Brazilian women, food and everything.

So, he's a catch-wrestler/shoot-wrestler and a BJJ'ist and a bit of a freestyle wrestler.
 
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