Athletics vs. Intelligence in Jiu Jitsu

[esila]

My friend had sent me a Reddit commentary thread that got me thinking:

Some thread on Obama but turned Intelligence vs. Athletics

Politics aside, the thread actually burst out into a spirited debate on athletics vs. intelligence and the role of athletics in life and school.

That thread got me thinking about how jiu jitsu is almost the "have the cake and eat it too" of athletics and intelligence. I've always enjoyed using the ****phor "a chess match - but you get to choke the guy out" to describe a good grappling matchup.

In today's grappling game, how would you rate the importance of athleticism vs. intelligence in jiu jitsu? Do you feel BJJ (gi or no gi) serves to break or maintain the stereotype of "sports = jocks = praise" vs "geekdom = nerds = looked down upon"?

 

[onepointeighty]

i see jiu jitsu or any form of fighting for that matter as mind first body second.

if you can logically create a game plan that changes as your opponent does you can always be a step ahead and use less energy in the process.

its like technique > strength itl always be more efficent this way

 

[Zankou]

The top BJJ competitors strike me as pretty regular guys in terms of intelligence. Roleta is maybe the exception there.

 

[Legacy]

I think you need a balance of both. Obviously certain situations would acquire one more than the other but to truly comfortable and confident in the world of bjj you need both. I dont think 1 can out weigh the other if you had someone with sheer intelligence vs someone with pure athleticism im not exactly sure how it would play out.

 

[drmckool]

i don't know about strength vs. intellegence. i always get out muscled and lose.

 

[kimurense]

The top BJJ competitors strike me as pretty regular guys in terms of intelligence. Roleta is maybe the exception there.

I think you might be misjudging the word inteligence here. Inteligence in BJJ does not have much to do with knowing who Steinbeck was, it has more to do with quick thinking at a body level (kind of hard to explain). I do think inteligence and game plan are extremely important in both MMA (just look at couture and what he has done), and in BJJ just look at Leozinho.

These two examples are just of two guys which are not the strongest or most athletic in their respective categories, but stilll held there own and owned most top competition.

But if you see in the top division of any grappling MA, every guy has a strong and thought gameplan, no one goes in there shooting guns like brock lesnar... I think you probably can get away a little bit more with athleticism in MMA rather then BJJ/grappling. However to succeed in any of them and maintain the high level you will need to have inteligence over athleticism.

 

[SMillard]

in the beginning strength, as you progress intelligence. This doesn't mean that you need to be a genius to be a great competitor it's as the TS stated about chess you need to train your mind just like you train your body. I just started back up again after almost a year layoff from injury and I am physically stronger but I can tell my mind is slower at reacting now then when I last grappled and it has really affected me.

Example; I was on bottom of side control and basically was going in my mind "frame out, shrimp out turn in.........and so on" which cost me because everything was so apparent to my opponent that I was constantly playing catch up.

 

[kimurense]

i don't know about strength vs. intellegence. i always get out muscled and lose.

that is probaly because you have neither at the moment (if you are a beginer).. give it time, it will happen (I hope)

 

[animalboy]

id say intelligence play a major part. knowing when to go for moves, memorizing the moves, knowing when to use a defense, what positions to switch to at the right time, where to put leverage at, small details, that's all attributes related to intelligence in my opinion... I'd rather be intelligent than strong in jiu jitsu atleast...

I've rolled with some strong dumb people.... and all they do is power out of moves... im not saying these people will get good 1 day, but it will take a consider bigger amount of time to get to a same level of an intelligent person...

you can always build strength by working out... now try to get more intelligent....

 

[ILGrappler]

I don't think an outsider would ever see the connection, but I agree that intelligence separates the good from the great. It's not an IQ-testable intelligence, not an analytical intelligence. It's a creative intelligence, it's more musical than anything else.

 

[shapoopi]

one can't live without the other. your mind needs your body to perform the techniques and your body needs the mind to tell it what to do.
having both better than average will give you results, but i don't think having one better than the other gives that much of an advantage.

 

[POPPA ROTZEE]

I have a friend that is extremely athletic, tall, ripped lean muscle and very strong come to class for his first day. After a lesson we were playing a guard passing game, king of the mountain style. Now I was in the fundamentals class before the advanced today so I won most of the matches and was up to about my 6ths guy when I looked up and noticed he was still rolling with the same blue belt from when we started. After my next match I noticed him run to the bathroom and stayed there the rest of the class. At the end of class I found out he beat a blue belt in the 1st game but then had to go throw up in the bathroom...the blue belt continued rolling with people.

Point being.....being athletic won the battle...but being smart enough not to waste all your energy on the first battle won the war

 

[POPPA ROTZEE]

Double post

 

[drmckool]

that is probaly because you have neither at the moment (if you are a beginer).. give it time, it will happen (I hope)

i am a beginner and i know that. i see myself as a pretty smart guy but it's true i don't have a good enough grasp on the moves really to be able to build a game plan that evolves as the match goes. strength, well i'm not that strong so that is a major problem for me

 

[IrishBeatDown****]

in any form of fighting i don't think you can value either one over the other...

you really need to have the total package to be a good grappler...

you can have all the knowledege of jiu jitsu and the human body in the world, but if you lack speed, strength, and hand eye coordination it won't mean a hill of beans...

conversely, you could be have freakish strength, the hand eye coordination to catch an arrow mid flight and the speed of a mongoose... but if you don't know how to apply it you are a fish out of water.

point being. there has to be a balance. a feeble pencil necked geek with great jiu jitsu skill is going to get mauled by the football star everytime if he doesnt have SOME athletic ability. and the body building maniac who can't count to ten with his shoes on will have the same problem.

this is an argument as old as martial arts itself and neither side is ever going to win. neither is more important than the other. the important thing is balance.

 

[Cash Bill 52]

I think everyone should know about Gardner's 7 + 2 Intelligences.

http://public.gettysburg.edu/~jpowers/multiple.html

There is also an EQ (emotional quotient) and a MQ (morality quotient)

Can you handle the pressure and make good choices?

I would say the laid back intelligence is the best one to have. Look at Roger, Marcello, Xande, Galvao, and Cobrinha. They are so laid back and easy going. They smile a lot. They seem so happy. They have figured out a way to have a lifestyle that connects all their multiple intelligences.

 

[Zankou]

Gardner's theory is basically junk science tho. A good discussion of it, and its critics:

Theory of multiple intelligences - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can call a lion a "genius" for its staggering athleticism when attacking an antelope, but it doesn't really equate with anything we consider "intelligence" more broadly.

To the extent it's possible to define and measure intelligence, it doesn't seem to have much (if anything) to do with success at professional sports.

 

[D Train]

A you have to have at least a measure of both or you'll never be successful.

 

[georgejjr]

You need both.

Just watch a very athletic beginner (someone who has never done any kind of grappling before, though they might have done a lot of other sports) - they'll do fine up to a point, but lose to less athletic, more skilled grapplers.

Then watch a very skilled (or intelligent) old man (someone like Helio for instance) - because their body can't do what their minds tell them to do, they'll lose to much less skilled opponents ... something you see in any sport btw, and which is why athletes retire at one point.

With just athleticism or just skill you're limited.

 

[Bostonkrav]

This reminds me of something Rampage said on The Ultimate Fighter last season, something along the lines of I may not be a smart man, but I'm a genius in the ring.

In my view
Intelligence in an activity like BJJ is being able to quickly see patterns, opportunities and risks. Anticipating what your opponent is going to do, how he will react to your action, and then crafting a plan of attack. Some people are quicker at figuring this stuff out than others.

One person might need a day or a week to make a game plan which gives them the best chance of success against an opponent. Another person might just need the blink of an eye to have it all figured out.

Also The intelligence part is different than knowledge which is your general catalog of techniques

Athleticism, is the ability to execute what your knowledge and intelligence tell you to do,(Do you have enough speed, strength, endurance and flexibility to execute?)

At some point the active intelligence becomes passive muscle memory and the athlete no longer needs to think, they just act and react.


Someone might do well on the SATs or succeed in a mentally taxing profession, there is no guarantee they will be mentally gifted when it comes to a sport.