As someone who has never trained Jiu Jitsu, can someone explain to me the evolution of sub defense?

[Paolo Delutis]

It's because most aren't high level leg lockers, like everyone else that gave an example of Ryan Hall being one of the few that is a high level leg locker, and Hermanson vs Gastelum showed it is effective if the fighter knows how to be effective with it.

Leg locks were always taboo in traditional BJJ so a lot of practitioners never learned or practiced them. The new school is all about leg locks and caused a shift in competition - it's primarily a leg locking game right now. IBJJF is going to finally allow heel hooks and reaps in 2021, it was originally a banned moved in competition. Much like in MMA, people don't train banned moves so traditional BJJ were at a disadvantage vs new school BJJ in terms of leg locks.

MMA grappling is different than pure grappling so there is always the risk of getting ground and pounded while going for leg locks. The BJ and Gastelum losses were due to them trying to turn and escape instead of locking their legs, or stacking their weight and ground and pounding.

How do you feel about that kind of shift we are seeing with leg locks getting used more im competition...i think as good as they are it kinda of hurts the match and flow and makes it hard to watch some matches as stalemates happen alot with leglock guys...do you think itll hurt or help BJJs sport viewership..?

Also for the guys building there whole style around leg locks , do you think there overall fighting/jiujitsu game suffers because of it?...kinda like a guy dedicated to boxing competing in MMA

 

[FIghtxIQ]

How do you feel about that kind of shift we are seeing with leg locks getting used more im competition...i think as good as they are it kinda of hurts the match and flow and makes it hard to watch some matches as stalemates happen alot with leglock guys...do you think itll hurt or help BJJs sport viewership..?

Also for the guys building there whole style around leg locks , do you think there overall fighting/jiujitsu game suffers because of it?...kinda like a guy dedicated to boxing competing in MMA

I'm not an expert on leg locks and just see the progression in BJJ as I was training. People would get pissed off with me when I tried practicing leg locks because of the taboo in BJJ with leg locks, so that's when I did some research on why it was an issue.

I think people are still adjusting to the new style so there will be stalemate situations, much like in mma in what can be considered wall and stall, and lay and pray. I'm sure there will be people that evolve the game into a more aggressive style that eliminates the stalemates.

I don't think their overall BJJ style should suffer if they build their style around leg locks, just as long as they still work everything else so they aren't one dimensional with their BJJ game.

I think high level boxing is lacking in mma and very few fighters have high level boxing. High level boxing would benefit more mma fighters in general. The fighters with high level boxing makes it very obvious in their mma fights by having a clear striking advantage. So it should work the same in BJJ. High level leg lockers would make that skillset obvious vs someone that doesn't have a high level leg locking game as well.

 

[Jose Beehive]

Im interested in seeing what people come up with too..i dont pretend to know everything and i could learn something new just like you ,

I would personally like to see more kneebars and less he'll hooks..i feel like theres alot of miss opportunities for knee bars in modern MMA but theres so many setups for them and its looks cool to me when ur pull them off...

Heel hooks are so fast , and against a skilled grappler it almost always results in a foot/leg lock battle, its just a tangled mess of pain and legs lol...

My personal favorite submissions to use are kimuras and triangle chokes...something about there abilty to checkmate your opponent or there finality appeals to me...with triangles and kimuras if you get them locked in to a certain point or stage theres nothing ur opponent can do..its over and u know it as the guy doing it...

To me your explanation has really opened my eyes to a lot of aspects of it, like you say it's so fast, but I hadn't realised how much technique was really going into them until now, real eye opener, I know i sound a little OTT but am genuinely grateful, this thread in general has asked a lot of questions and discussion of this sort excites me.

There was an example recently not long after the Gastelum fight that I remember seeing someone defend against similar situation in what seemed like a really amazing escape, may have been close to what your Option 1 was and I remember thinking "That defence was really cool" think I even posted something like "I hope Gastelum is watching" on here, but I can't fucking remember who it was, i'm gonna have to go try and find it.

Other than the ones you mentioned I really like the arm-triangle choke, I have found that surprisingly successful, also someone on here posted something about a Buggy choke, so I checked that out and drilled it a little, pretty fun, though couldn't get a tap from it on first couple attempts, really like Rubber guard stuff too.
I've never formally trained BJJ in a gym, just messed about rolling based off of Youtube tutorials and friends in sparring so I imagine loads of my habits are dogs shit, my GF is my height 6ft1 and pretty into it too so we try learn bits and pieces together.

I've always wondered why those rubber people who are like double jointed all over and ultimately flexible never go into BJJ, one day one of those guys is gonna wreck everyone.

 

[Dirge]

Wtf is going on in here?

A civilized intelligent thread about fighting techniques?

My favorites must be messed up

 

[Paolo Delutis]

To me your explanation has really opened my eyes to a lot of aspects of it, like you say it's so fast, but I hadn't realised how much technique was really going into them until now, real eye opener, I know i sound a little OTT but am genuinely grateful, this thread in general has asked a lot of questions and discussion of this sort excites me.

There was an example recently not long after the Gastelum fight that I remember seeing someone defend against similar situation in what seemed like a really amazing escape, may have been close to what your Option 1 was and I remember thinking "That defence was really cool" think I even posted something like "I hope Gastelum is watching" on here, but I can't fucking remember who it was, i'm gonna have to go try and find it.

Other than the ones you mentioned I really like the arm-triangle choke, I have found that surprisingly successful, also someone on here posted something about a Buggy choke, so I checked that out and drilled it a little, pretty fun, though couldn't get a tap from it on first couple attempts, really like Rubber guard stuff too.
I've never formally trained BJJ in a gym, just messed about rolling based off of Youtube tutorials and friends in sparring so I imagine loads of my habits are dogs shit, my GF is my height 6ft1 and pretty into it too so we try learn bits and pieces together.

I've always wondered why those rubber people who are like double jointed all over and ultimately flexible never go into BJJ, one day one of those guys is gonna wreck everyone.

Lol funny you mentioned double jointed ...
The first tournament i won i didnt have enough people in my belt level and weigjt class at the time so they bumped up a belt level but same weight class and i had to face a black belt in the final and i locked in a kimura and had full guard i crank that thing so far im not even joking i thought i was gunna touch the back of his head with his hand...he ended up rolling and i ended up on. On top and held the position till time ran out and i got my trophy lol

I asked him after how the fuck did u not tap ...he told me he had double jointed shoulders and we both laughed..he was a nice guy , just returned to competition that day from a lay off he said ..it was a good match he gave me props i was a green belt at the time ( under a blue belt in japanese jiujitsu)

 

[Jose Beehive]

Lol funny you mentioned double jointed ...
The first tournament i won i didnt have enough people in my belt level and weigjt class at the time so they bumped up a belt level but same weight class and i had to face a black belt in the final and i locked in a kimura and had full guard i crank that thing so far im not even joking i thought i was gunna touch the back of his head with his hand...he ended up rolling and i ended up on. On top and held the position till time ran out and i got my trophy lol

I asked him after how the fuck did u not tap ...he told me he had double jointed shoulders and we both laughed..he was a nice guy , just returned to competition that day from a lay off he said ..it was a good match he gave me props i was a green belt at the time ( under a blue belt in japanese jiujitsu)

Ha no shit!

Like what happens when you get someone like this in any kind of leg submission, and then theres some people who have that flexibility in loads of places.. Crazy shit.

 

[Paolo Delutis]

Ha no shit!

Like what happens when you get someone like this in any kind of leg submission, and then theres some people who have that flexibility in loads of places.. Crazy shit.

Omg...wtf...this scares me is that for real...holy haha

 

[Jose Beehive]

Omg...wtf...this scares me is that for real...holy haha

Not certain if it is real, I think so though.
I mean this dude can Triangle himself, I can't wait to see someone in jujitsu with this Contortionist shit going on.

 

[TheMaster]

Specifically I'm discussing heel hooks, ankle locks, leg locks, achilles locks, etc. Any time a grappler latches on to a leg basically. Back in the day and watching old fights it was common to see someone grab a leg and the opponent quickly panic and give up very quickly.

In modern MMA its rare to see fights finished with these types of maneuvers. Is it really just as simple as basic BJJ defense knowledge and knowing how to position yourself to avoid the pressure of these subs? Its really crazy to think of the evolution of this aspect of fighting and grappling.

In pure sport BJJ vs GJJ?
Ignore the fact u can get your head and face punched in and elbowed , and go for intricate 'meta-game' sub defences and positions that work in pure grappling but leave u exposed and mostly wouldn't work in actual fighting.

 

[sb413197]

It's interesting how these things evolve. Danaher's death squad basically savages everyone with leglocks but apparently in their own internal gym grappling it's decided mainly with classic BJJ because they are all so good at the leglock setups and defense now. You get good at things by training them.

Problem is heel hooks are a bit tricky to train for recreational gyms with guys that aren't "professional" gyms (i.e. their grapplers aren't full time martial artists but rather guys who just do it for fun - many of whom don't even compete regularly) It may be fine when you train 6 hours a day but I'm not sure how safe it is to train them for guys who come in a few times a week for an hour or two or whatever

 

[cheachea]

Rousimar Palhares

 

[shunyata]

I train at ATT and it’s satellite locations here in Florida. I don’t mind going to other academies every once in a while, even been to the original Blackzillians gym which was just 10 minutes north of the old ATT gym.

One thing that’s been consistently engraved in my mind is “Give back twice what you receive”... I.e. if someone wants to legitimately learn and get better then by all means assist them with whatever you can, BUT if someone is trying to go all out and train full go then oblige them twice as hard.

We get people from other gyms and you can tell which schools try that meathead junk and which are really there to learn. I’m not gonna lie, If someone tries to start snatching leg locks out of the blue, I’m gonna play dirty aswell: 3 point side mounts, knee on belly, forearm to the throat during passes etc.

Give what your receive sure.

But wtf are you on that "leg locks" = "dirty"?

And more importantly, are you not crossfacing everyone at all times? Only after they try to leglock you?



ABC brother.

Always Be Crossfacing.

 

[BRASIL WAND]

Give what your receive sure.

But wtf are you on that "leg locks" = "dirty"?

And more importantly, are you not crossfacing everyone at all times? Only after they try to leglock you?



ABC brother.

Always Be Crossfacing.

I try and take care of training partners if we’re both trying to learn. I don’t crossface, dig elbows to pass, use thousand kilo pressure to hold position, etc.

And there’s a difference between snatching leg locks and attempting them. If I have a leg lock for example I’m not gonna torque 100% out of nowhere, I’m gonna go maybe 30% and increase pressure giving you the chance to work an escape or tap.

Stuff like joint locks are extremely sensitive, if there’s a gym warrior trying to hurt people I have no problem putting a beating on them.

 

[shunyata]

I try and take care of training partners if we’re both trying to learn. I don’t crossface, dig elbows to pass, use thousand kilo pressure to hold position, etc.

And there’s a difference between snatching leg locks and attempting them. If I have a leg lock for example I’m not gonna torque 100% out of nowhere, I’m gonna go maybe 30% and increase pressure giving you the chance to work an escape or tap.

Stuff like joint locks are extremely sensitive, if there’s a gym warrior trying to hurt people I have no problem putting a beating on them.

Literally all joint locks should be torqued slowly, I'd be just as offended at the guy doing a high speed kimura or armbar finish as I would if they were ripping on a kneebar at warp speed.


"Snatching leglocks" is no dirtier than snatching straight armbars. Yeah you might need to move fast to get the initial control, but the application of the final torque or pressure to coax the tap should always be nice and slow.

I'm not trying to Aoki break peoples arms or legs.






The idea that proper crossfaces and pressure are "dirty" is just insane to me. Obviously if there's a weight disparity we aren't trying to kill the lighter player but how are people supposed to learn correct framing and pressure if we never show them how important it is?

I'm not talking about rolling with soccer moms or the elderly here, but people with some experience who like to be competitive or are prepping to compete in the future.

If they aren't comfortable dealing with and defending against pressure, I feel like we've failed them as training partners.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

What’s your question specifically... you’re kind of throwing out a broad subject.

As far as leg locks go, it’s just flat out considered tasteless if you start spamming them in the middle of rolling if you’re partner is unaware. They’re also done less the 50% intensity and tapping is also considered good etiquette if your partner has the lock unless you’re training escapes.


What other questions do you have?

Yeah no, ankle locks knee bars and anything is not hh are not done at 50% even in training, well depends, but in a hardcore competition team, no one just flat out taps “oh you got me”

 

[BRASIL WAND]

Literally all joint locks should be torqued slowly, I'd be just as offended at the guy doing a high speed kimura or armbar finish as I would if they were ripping on a kneebar at warp speed.


"Snatching leglocks" is no dirtier than snatching straight armbars. Yeah you might need to move fast to get the initial control, but the application of the final torque or pressure to coax the tap should always be nice and slow.

I'm not trying to Aoki break peoples arms or legs.






The idea that proper crossfaces and pressure are "dirty" is just insane to me. Obviously if there's a weight disparity we aren't trying to kill the lighter player but how are people supposed to learn correct framing and pressure if we never show them how important it is?

I'm not talking about rolling with soccer moms or the elderly here, but people with some experience who like to be competitive or are prepping to compete in the future.

If they aren't comfortable dealing with and defending against pressure, I feel like we've failed them as training partners.

You’re misunderstanding, my whole point is there’s a time and place for everything. If we’re both going 100%, there’s usually still etiquette in place. I train with pros, amateurs, even help teach beginners classes just to refresh my own fundamentals.

For example if I’m rolling with a pro or someone training for competition by all means we’re going full intensity. I have a wrestling background myself I’m even used to threatening/using leg locks myself if in sparring against credentialed wrestlers or bigger opponents. Heck, we go to war in open mat on the weekends or between higher belts. But in straight BJJ training there’s just certain ethics I keep lol. Again we’re taught to give back twice what we receive. That’s my gyms motto.

 

[BRASIL WAND]

Yeah no, ankle locks knee bars and anything is not hh are not done at 50% even in training, well depends, but in a hardcore competition team, no one just flat out taps “oh you got me”

Wym? You guys crank joint locks full go? Obviously you want to work every escape possible but it’s courtesy to tap in rolling if your opponent is not cranking/torquing full go.


We have guys who come from Cicero Costas gym(about as hardcore as you can get) and they follow mostly the same etiquette.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Wym? You guys crank joint locks full go? Obviously you want to work every escape possible but it’s courtesy to tap in rolling if your opponent is not cranking/torquing full go.


We have guys who come from Cicero Costas gym(about as hardcore as you can get) and they follow mostly the same etiquette.

You don’t crank anything, you apply the sub, at 50% though, unless is some kind of flow rolling, no one taps, specially if you are in the competition team

this doesn’t include hh obviously

 

[BRASIL WAND]

You don’t crank anything, you apply the sub, at 50% though, unless is some kind of flow rolling, no one taps, specially if you are in the competition team

this doesn’t include hh obviously

You’re comparing apples to orange though: you don’t even finish subs in flow rolling, you’re just in constant transition. Obviously there’s no tapping.

Idk were probably just from different schools of thought. We’re careful with joint locks and most gyms I’ve been to are aswell. Chokes are a full go though.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

You’re comparing apples to orange though: you don’t even finish subs in flow rolling, you’re just in constant transition. Obviously there’s no tapping.

Idk were probably just from different schools of thought. We’re careful with joint locks and most gyms I’ve been to are aswell. Chokes are a full go though.

I think your thinking I’m saying we crack shit to hurt people, we don’t, but competitve rolling isn’t “oh you got me” type of rolling either, if both are somehow at the same level (and not white belts) 50% apply sub is going to end up with the guy escaping, you apply the sub, but you obviously don’t hurt your partner, but you don’t expect him to tap just by gettin to the position, at least that’s how we roll