As someone who has never trained Jiu Jitsu, can someone explain to me the evolution of sub defense?

[Jose Beehive]

Great thread BTW, enjoying all the questions and responses, would like it all if I had any left.

LOL at Chael and Rampage talking about leg locks

 

[ultramanhyata]

They still happen but it just feels fewer and further between.

Agree. That's why when guys like Ryan Hall pull them off against fighters who are supposed to know how to defend them you understand how incredibly high-level the dude is.

 

[Rampage_Jackson]

Blinky dude

That's slick but BJ is basically a sparring dummie at that point

 

[ultramanhyata]

Blinky dude

It was a joke.

 

[Jose Beehive]

That's slick but BJ is basically a sparring dummie at that point

Oh of course, but Ryan Hall does that shit to everyone, he's got a side kick, a spinning head kick and a fucking insane BJJ game.. And thats about it lol .
4 heel hook wins in 12 fights(including his TUF fights) it's a very evident FATALITY for him.

 

[Jose Beehive]

It was a joke.

I know buddy, your post cracked me up.

 

[Paolo Delutis]

Blinky dude

Bj thought it was the other leg...he couldnt see which leg got trapped since ryan first holds both and penn rolled to free the leg he thought was stuck but he guessed wrong and made a tight leg lock even worse by rolling the wrong way...he responded the right way speed wise and escape wise just wrong direction...had he rolled the other way he would of freed the leg being attacked ..man that breaks my heart watching that but that leg kick to imanari roll is a legit cool setup

 

[Jose Beehive]

Bj thought it was the other leg...he couldnt see which leg got trapped since ryan first holds both and penn rolled to free the leg he thought was stuck but he guessed wrong and made a tight leg lock even worse by rolling the wrong way...he responded the right way speed wise and escape wise just wrong direction...had he rolled the other way he would of freed the leg being attacked ..man that breaks my heart watching that but that leg kick to imanari roll is a legit cool setup

Good take man,

 

[BRASIL WAND]

I think it depends on the gym you train at? The gym I train at loves its leg lock game, and the etiquette is totally different than what you are describing. Obviously the intensity is low, and tapping happens quickly, but spamming isn't considered tasteless.

I train at ATT and it’s satellite locations here in Florida. I don’t mind going to other academies every once in a while, even been to the original Blackzillians gym which was just 10 minutes north of the old ATT gym.

One thing that’s been consistently engraved in my mind is “Give back twice what you receive”... I.e. if someone wants to legitimately learn and get better then by all means assist them with whatever you can, BUT if someone is trying to go all out and train full go then oblige them twice as hard.

We get people from other gyms and you can tell which schools try that meathead junk and which are really there to learn. I’m not gonna lie, If someone tries to start snatching leg locks out of the blue, I’m gonna play dirty aswell: 3 point side mounts, knee on belly, forearm to the throat during passes etc.

 

[Rampage_Jackson]

Bj thought it was the other leg...he couldnt see which leg got trapped since ryan first holds both and penn rolled to free the leg he thought was stuck but he guessed wrong and made a tight leg lock even worse by rolling the wrong way...he responded the right way speed wise and escape wise just wrong direction...had he rolled the other way he would of freed the leg being attacked ..man that breaks my heart watching that but that leg kick to imanari roll is a legit cool setup

Very interesting. I had wondered if BJ made that particular submission worse with the way he rolled because it did look that way but I don't have enough in depth knowledge to know if that was what happened there.

 

[Jose Beehive]

Bj thought it was the other leg...he couldnt see which leg got trapped since ryan first holds both and penn rolled to free the leg he thought was stuck but he guessed wrong and made a tight leg lock even worse by rolling the wrong way...he responded the right way speed wise and escape wise just wrong direction...had he rolled the other way he would of freed the leg being attacked ..man that breaks my heart watching that but that leg kick to imanari roll is a legit cool setup

How would you break this down?
Better or worse defence than BJ?

 

[Paolo Delutis]

Very interesting. I had wondered if BJ made that particular submission worse with the way he rolled because it did look that way but I don't have enough in depth knowledge to know if that was what happened there.

Oh he definitely did...he essentially turned his knee and ankle the opposite direction that ryan was trying to torque it in...so its like a double whammy...super painful and likely injured something inside ...bj is such a warrior tho to just stand up from that but u can see hes hurting getting up..

Imagine grabing a chicken leg but its ends like the cartilage part( knuckle) and spinning one end to the left and other to the right...thats kinda what happened there..

 

[Chael_Sonnen]

I train at ATT and it’s satellite locations here in Florida. I don’t mind going to other academies every once in a while, even been to the original Blackzillians gym which was just 10 minutes north of the old ATT gym.

One thing that’s been consistently engraved in my mind is “Give back twice what you receive”... I.e. if someone wants to legitimately learn and get better then by all means assist them with whatever you can, BUT if someone is trying to go all out and train full go then oblige them twice as hard.

We get people from other gyms and you can tell which schools try that meathead junk and which are really there to learn. I’m not gonna lie, If someone tries to start snatching leg locks out of the blue, I’m gonna play dirty aswell: 3 point side mounts, knee on belly, forearm to the throat during passes etc.

Yeah fair enough, that rolling philosophy is very similar to the one I was trained with... I think though there is a difference in what you see as bad etiquette and what I see as bad etiquette.

Don't get me wrong, if someone starts cranking heel hooks and shit then I'm going to stop rolling with them, but if they simply like using leg locks, then I don't see it as bad form for them to do it without warning in a normal roll, because I view leg locks as a normal part of BJJ. You wouldn't be annoyed when someone snatched an armbar in a normal roll, because they are a normal part of BJJ.

I get that they can be more dangerous, but I find that is generally because people are not as comfortable with them as they are other aspects.

 

[Paolo Delutis]

How would you break this down?

Ok so right away..hermanson establishes good control of the leg hes attacking and if u watch closely gastleum.tries to press forward and collapse onto hermanson which is a typical response to do when someone tries overhooking ur leg with theres and starting to set up the heel hook from that position..

But heres where it gets interesting watch hermanson's other leg , not the one over kevins the other one he uses it to trip and lock kevins other leg out stopping him.from crushing down on him...at the same time he begins to crank the hell.hook...this was a super tight lock and quite advance in its execution

That said gastelum never adjusted to the trip he was mors concerned with trying to regain his posture then dealing with the leglock , he had two options both in which hed have to do extremely fast...

Option 1 - roll thru , like the B.J leg lock gastlum had to roll to get out of this but not left or right but forward, watch as hermanson trips him.its in this moment before gaste is falling back that he should of rolled if u watch he kinda pitches forward then falls back.from.the trip...had he rolled forward he would of created a scramble because hermanson cant crank and sweep at the same time so he doesnt have tight control of the leg as he sweeps ..

Option 2- sit down/squst/knee down...instead of trying to crash into hermanson in the first place kevin could of just drop himself lower and fight the hands /legs of hermanson..he wouldnt of been swept and hes in no danger of being hit cuz hermanson has comitted to the leg lock,....he could if was lucky go knee down on hermanson leg that swept in which not only stops the move but also traps and could hurt hermanson leg


To answer ur better defense question...BJ had the better defense, he was using the right technique and recognized the danger...gaste was too relaxed/more worried about posture then the hold

 

[Jose Beehive]

Ok so right away..hermanson establishes good control of the leg hes attacking and if u watch closely gastleum.tries to press forward and collapse onto hermanson which is a typical response to do when someone tries overhooking ur leg with theres and starting to set up the heel hook from that position..

But heres where it gets interesting watch hermanson's other leg , not the one over kevins the other one he uses it to trip and lock kevins other leg out stopping him.from crushing down on him...at the same time he begins to crank the hell.hook...this was a super tight lock and quite advance in its execution

That said gastelum never adjusted to the trip he was mors concerned with trying to regain his posture then dealing with the leglock , he had two options both in which hed have to do extremely fast...

Option 1 - roll thru , like the B.J leg lock gastlum had to roll to get out of this but not left or right but forward, watch as hermanson trips him.its in this moment before gaste is falling back that he should of rolled if u watch he kinda pitches forward then falls back.from.the trip...had he rolled forward he would of created a scramble because hermanson cant crank and sweep at the same time so he doesnt have tight control of the leg as he sweeps ..

Option 2- sit down/squst/knee down...instead of trying to crash into hermanson in the first place kevin could of just drop himself lower and fight the hands /legs of hermanson..he wouldnt of been swept and hes in no danger of being hit cuz hermanson has comitted to the leg lock,....he could if was lucky go knee down on hermanson leg that swept in which not only stops the move but also traps and could hurt hermanson leg


To answer ur better defense question...BJ had the better defense, he was using the right technique and recognized the danger...gaste was too relaxed/more worried about posture then the hold

Thanks man, fucking excellent! .. Lot's of stuff I hadn't noticed or thought about at all. I need more breakdowns of this quality in my life.

To answer ur better defense question...BJ had the better defense, he was using the right technique and recognized the danger...gaste was too relaxed/more worried about posture then the hold

Interesting! I wonder how many without such insight would have thought that the case, I would have guessed initially that Gastelum put up the better defence, but you've completely convinced me otherwise.

 

[lechien]

Why are they not used more in MMA these days? What is the technique to defending them and are they difficult to apply properly?

The old school mentality against leg lock was you gave a top position and end up attempting a leg lock with both hands. Which can leave you open for strikes.

Of course,. Modern leg locks system has way to lace the leg and avoid possible strikes.

leg locks can caused injuries like any other locks.

One old school way if thinking is that it is not worth the injuries. Heelhook for example can cause rapid injuries due to smaller ligaments.

Modern school would say that leg locks are not dangerous and it is most likely caused by the lack of knowledge in defence etc.

Lately heelhook has been the kryptonite of bjj where a white belt could easily defeat a BB that does not spar with heelhook.

 

[Paolo Delutis]

Thanks man, fucking excellent! .. Lot's of stuff I hadn't noticed or thought about at all. I need more breakdowns of this quality in my life.



Interesting! I wonder how many without such insight would have thought that the case, I would have guessed initially that Gastelum put up the better defence, but you've completely convinced me otherwise.

No problem im sure there lots of guys on here with there own takes...i train in Japanese jiujitsu so my perspective may be different then just a BJJ guy but thats essentially what i would of done in that situation but hermanson did an stellar job applying that leg lock even if you tried what i said there could be a chance he still gets it...it was very beautifully done

 

[Jose Beehive]

No problem im sure there lots of guys on here with there own takes...i train in Japanese jiujitsu so my perspective may be different then just a BJJ guy but thats essentially what i would of done in that situation but hermanson did an stellar job applying that leg lock even if you tried what i said there could be a chance he still gets it...it was very beautifully done

Interesting, I have had 0 encounters with the Japanese Jujitsu perspective knowingly, the timing of when it is he should have rolled forwards makes a lot of sense, I'm certain i've seen this kind of escape now that you've mentioned it, but can't think were.

And watching the other leg is fascinating, both really, watching it over and over in this format you can really see how technical it is from that perspective.

I'd be interested to see if there's any push back or additions on your breakdown because it's genuinely one of the best i've seen on something like this. Hat's off to you.

If I wasn't already hoping fo more leg locks in MMA, I really am now.

 

[FIghtxIQ]

It really seems like something that doesn't concern most fighters. Back in the day when someone latched on to a leg I saw a lot of panic. Now it seems nobody sweats them. I thought it was a result of fighters just understanding how to defend them better but your assertion is its a lack of fighters knowing how to apply them? Interesting. Very interesting. Thank you for your response.

It's because most aren't high level leg lockers, like everyone else that gave an example of Ryan Hall being one of the few that is a high level leg locker, and Hermanson vs Gastelum showed it is effective if the fighter knows how to be effective with it.

Leg locks were always taboo in traditional BJJ so a lot of practitioners never learned or practiced them. The new school is all about leg locks and caused a shift in competition - it's primarily a leg locking game right now. IBJJF is going to finally allow heel hooks and reaps in 2021, it was originally a banned moved in competition. Much like in MMA, people don't train banned moves so traditional BJJ were at a disadvantage vs new school BJJ in terms of leg locks.

MMA grappling is different than pure grappling so there is always the risk of getting ground and pounded while going for leg locks. The BJ and Gastelum losses were due to them trying to turn and escape instead of locking their legs, or stacking their weight and ground and pounding.

 

[Paolo Delutis]

Interesting, I have had 0 encounters with the Japanese Jujitsu perspective knowingly, the timing of when it is he should have rolled forwards makes a lot of sense, I'm certain i've seen this kind of escape now that you've mentioned it, but can't think were.

And watching the other leg is fascinating, both really, watching it over and over in this format you can really see how technical it is from that perspective.

I'd be interested to see if there's any push back or additions on your breakdown because it's genuinely one of the best i've seen on something like this. Hat's off to you.

If I wasn't already hoping fo more leg locks in MMA, I really am now.

Im interested in seeing what people come up with too..i dont pretend to know everything and i could learn something new just like you ,

I would personally like to see more kneebars and less he'll hooks..i feel like theres alot of miss opportunities for knee bars in modern MMA but theres so many setups for them and its looks cool to me when ur pull them off...

Heel hooks are so fast , and against a skilled grappler it almost always results in a foot/leg lock battle, its just a tangled mess of pain and legs lol...

My personal favorite submissions to use are kimuras and triangle chokes...something about there abilty to checkmate your opponent or there finality appeals to me...with triangles and kimuras if you get them locked in to a certain point or stage theres nothing ur opponent can do..its over and u know it as the guy doing it...