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As someone who has never trained Jiu Jitsu, can someone explain to me the evolution of sub defense?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Rampage_Jackson, Nov 16, 2020.

  1. Rampage_Jackson retired 3/6/21

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    Specifically I'm discussing heel hooks, ankle locks, leg locks, achilles locks, etc. Any time a grappler latches on to a leg basically. Back in the day and watching old fights it was common to see someone grab a leg and the opponent quickly panic and give up very quickly.

    In modern MMA its rare to see fights finished with these types of maneuvers. Is it really just as simple as basic BJJ defense knowledge and knowing how to position yourself to avoid the pressure of these subs? Its really crazy to think of the evolution of this aspect of fighting and grappling.
     
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  2. Rampage_Jackson retired 3/6/21

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    I also hear a lot of BJJ purists that are anti leg locks? They say its too violent and doesn't give the opponent a chance to submit before injury. Which is a weird critique to me.

    Can anyone shed light on the technique behind proper leg lock and leg lock defense and why they've fallen by the wasteside in modern MMA? I can't find a good video or thread discussing the details on why this is.
     
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  3. PizzaandBeer Banned Banned

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  4. Chael_Sonnen I'm the reason Waldo is hiding. Platinum Member

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    In my opinion the leg lock game in MMA is currently very bad. There are only a couple of people who have a high level of knowledge in area, Ryan Hall being the one that springs to mind for me. (Obviously Hall is ridiculously high level though).

    In BJJ currently the leg lock meta is all the rage, and I think we will see that transfer to MMA grappling soon.

    We saw Hermanson get that sub on Gastelum, who looked like he had never trained a day of leg defense in his life. I think that was probably a wake up call to a lot of fighters.

    I only know the basics, so someone else can go into the technical specifics, but current submission grappling is highly focused on the legs, and for a good reason. I don't think it is quite as applicable in MMA though, because of GnP. Positions like a deep half guard who someone like Craig Jones utilizes for a lot of his leg locks are hard to pull off in MMA, because of the threat of strikes.
    However, although being less effective in MMA than submission grappling, they would still be highly effective, because of the lack of training most modern MMA practitioners have in defending them. Just my opinion though, take it with a grain of salt.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2020
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  5. ultramanhyata Reclimbing Like Mountain

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  6. Rampage_Jackson retired 3/6/21

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    It really seems like something that doesn't concern most fighters. Back in the day when someone latched on to a leg I saw a lot of panic. Now it seems nobody sweats them. I thought it was a result of fighters just understanding how to defend them better but your assertion is its a lack of fighters knowing how to apply them? Interesting. Very interesting. Thank you for your response.
     
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  7. Rampage_Jackson retired 3/6/21

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    Indeed.

    Like one of the first MMA PPVs I watched was the Pride show where Shogun knee bar'd Randleman. He went from a heel hook to a toe hold to a knee bar and made him tap. You rarely if ever see shit like that anymore
     
  8. BRASIL WAND Banned Banned

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    What’s your question specifically... you’re kind of throwing out a broad subject.

    As far as leg locks go, it’s just flat out considered tasteless if you start spamming them in the middle of rolling if you’re partner is unaware. They’re also done less the 50% intensity and tapping is also considered good etiquette if your partner has the lock unless you’re training escapes.


    What other questions do you have?
     
  9. Rampage_Jackson retired 3/6/21

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    Why are they not used more in MMA these days? What is the technique to defending them and are they difficult to apply properly?
     
  10. ultramanhyata Reclimbing Like Mountain

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    Didn't that blinky dude beat Penn with a heel hook just a couple years ago? BJ is a 5th degree black belt.
     
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  11. mirko>anyone Red Belt

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    Cro Cop immediately transitioned to ankle locks after bucking Gonzaga from mount twice in their rematch. Blew my mind.
     
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  12. Rampage_Jackson retired 3/6/21

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    They still happen but it just feels fewer and further between. Finishes and subs in general are down I'm pretty certain if we saw the stats but those types of submissions are incredibly rare nowadays
     
  13. Slatersan Black Belt

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    The problem with leg locks in mma is if you dont get it you are usually in a bad position. Any spot where you end up laying down isnt good for mma if you dont have a submission.
     
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  14. Rampage_Jackson retired 3/6/21

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    True but I saw them more in Pride when having that type of position would have been even more of a detriment.
     
  15. Chael_Sonnen I'm the reason Waldo is hiding. Platinum Member

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    Hmm, I think a lot of fighters know the basics in how to defend them, and so when facing a person who isn't particularly skilled they don't need to panic. Most of them know the basics at least, and if they are facing an opponent who they know utilizes leg locks they can specifically train for them.

    I can't speak for the period you are referring to, because I wasn't watching then.

    The UFC has a lot of semi-traditional grapplers, and as you mentioned, a lot of them don't like going for leg locks. It seems to be a Brazilian thing, although not all of them have a problem with it.

    The other thing is modern submission grappling has a far larger audience than it used to, and it is now possible to make a living off it. Previously, you often had to go into MMA to make any money.
    Nowadays, they don't need to transition, and so you aren't seeing as many high level transitions I think. Also a lot of them have realized that they don't have the wrestling to back up their submissions, after seeing many great grapplers get destroyed by people with decent wrestling and good standup.

    I am straying away from going into technique, because as I say I only know the basics. I would say though that I don't see many people attacking the legs, I can't remember the last time I saw someone sit back into a 50/50. Maybe Cyril Gane? Anyway, I think that shows how little they are used, and the only conclusion I can draw from that is that people don't know how to properly go for them, also people know how to defend them better, and as such it is riskier to go for them.

    Edit: Also as @BRASIL WAND says, the positioning often leaves you very open to strikes, however there are definitely some positions that are less dangerous than others, and I think with more time we will see them utilized more in MMA.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2020
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  16. BRASIL WAND Banned Banned

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    The real answer: They’re not done in MMA because the positional set ups for them leave you in compromising/vulnerable positions. I.e. unless you’re some unicorn like Ryan Hall who can apply his BJJ to MMA and manage distance, maintain a cool head under fire, etc you’re probably going to get your jaw cracked from 50/50 or rolling for leg locks.

    Modern Competition BJJ has shifted heavily towards leg locks, but most of these moves can’t be effectively applied to MMA because of the vulnerability of the set ups. It’s why I’ve said BJJ is no longer a serious feeder program for MMA.

    Guys like Gordon Ryan, Craig Jones, the Miyaos, etc would get smoked in MMA.
     
  17. Paolo Delutis Silver Belt

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    I think in pure jiujitsu competition , leg locks are still a big deal right now...the way guys are hitting them at top level competitions speak to there effectiveness and some guys entire game is built around leg traps and subs..but i think in MMA leg locks are looked at as risky...from a attack point of view, they take alot of effort and positioning to hit and require for the most part the use of all ur limbs to pull off this means you cant really block your face or do anything else but the submission its a big commitment move and with guys getting better on the ground or just more aware i think people worry about getting tired or losing postion/getting hit while going for it... The whole position over submission thing...

    That said there specialists like nick held and ryan hall out there who have no problem snatching legs...

    So in closing its abit of both...guys have gotten better at defending or being aware to leg locks and people are less likely to go for them thinking they maybe be risking a certain position/gassing or might get hit hard while going for it..
     
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  18. Chael_Sonnen I'm the reason Waldo is hiding. Platinum Member

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    I think it depends on the gym you train at? The gym I train at loves its leg lock game, and the etiquette is totally different than what you are describing. Obviously the intensity is low, and tapping happens quickly, but spamming isn't considered tasteless.
     
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  19. Slatersan Black Belt

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    Yeah but back then the defense was lacking. Nowadays most have some leg lock defense. You have to know for sure you’re going to get it if you are going for it in mma and most dont have that confidence in it.

    Garry Tonon is a high level bjj leg locker who is in ONE now. He lands them in fights. Hes a different breed of grappler though.
     
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  20. Jose Beehive No.1 Soldier Of God Gif User

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