Arthrogenic Muscle Inhibition

[ripskater]

The fact that it is used in MAT doesn't in itself mean it has actual validity. "Energy meridians" are used in acupuncture, "vital energy" used in osteopathy and "subluxation" used in chiropractic, that doesn't mean those concepts have any scientific validity. I am asking for references on a very specific scientific claim that I would like to see supported.



I am going to ignore the repeated ad hominem attacks towards miaou and ask again:

Can you provide your references for your above statement?

Also, what is your education background, besides being a MAT practitioner?

It's not a problem that you asked for a valid source. I'm saying it may not be out there. It's what I said earlier about coming in with an attitude towards the TS.

 

[troublefunk]

I don't know what you expected from simply posting some article on a forum. Is there tact in that? Maybe I am missing something. Were you trying to show-off? possibly. Were you here to sell something? maybe. We don't know you from a hole in the wall, so dropping some link to a fucking study then posting your opinion without reference raises alarm bells. I would consider this un-tactful.

Nurse, what can I say. It's a cool study, it is incredibly relevant to people interested in strength and performance. I was trying to post something of value to people who might be interested. I purposely didn't comment on it, so as not to try to direct people's opinions/response to it.

If you find that "un-tactful" or inappropriate, I guess we have very different ideas of how the world works. My apologies for offending you.

I've been a member of this forum since 2009. I have posted before that I am a MAT Specialist, it's not a secret. I'm anonymous, and have never posted my name or webpage. I'm not trying to sell anything. I don't post much, but I read a lot. I know that Miaou is a smart guy with and knows an enormous amount. I've learned a lot from him.

 

[NurseKnuckles]

Nurse, what can I say. It's a cool study, it is incredibly relevant to people interested in strength and performance. I was trying to post something of value to people who might be interested. I purposely didn't comment on it, so as not to try to direct people's opinions/response to it.

If you find that "un-tactful" or inappropriate, I guess we have very different ideas of how the world works. My apologies for offending you.

I've been a member of this forum since 2009. I have posted before that I am a MAT Specialist, it's not a secret. I'm anonymous, and have never posted my name or webpage. I'm not trying to sell anything. I don't post much, but I read a lot. I know that Miaou is a smart guy with and knows an enormous amount. I've learned a lot from him.

I was trying to premise why Miaou's tone may have caused you to push back. I don't think he really meant to be obnoxious, just cautious. Maybe obnoxious, I can't speak for him.

 

[LegioTitan]

Can you give me some details?

Also check your ROM bilaterally in the following 6 positions and tell me if you're limited one one side (i.e. asymmetrical). Rate the limitation: small, moderate, large.

For all, lying down face up. For some of these you need to be on a table or surface which allows your arm to descend below you.
1) Arm by side, bend elbow 90, check shoulder external rotation.
2) Arm abducted 90, bend elbow 90, check shoulder ER.
3) Arm abducted 90, bend elbow 90, check shoulder IR
4) Horizontal Adduction (arm across body) ELBOW STRAIGHT.
5) Flexion (arm overhead) ELBOW STRAIGHT)
6) Extension (arm by your side, then straight back, need to be at edge of table) ELBOW STRAIGHT.

It hurts the most if I reach across my chest and grab the back of the opposing(left) shoulder. None of the er/ir movements caused any discomfort. It's very dull in extension, slightly pronounced at 90 across the chest, and sharp if I grab the shoulder.
It's localized most right around where it meets the pec.

That help?

 

[miaou]

Regarding the rest of it, I made no very specific scientific claim. You are living in non-reality.

"I am not making a very specific scientific claim, but based on science and my experience, I believe this to be true."

I'm sorry that you misread "In my opinion" to mean "I am making a very specific scientific claim".

This is what you said:

To bias VM the client lies on their back, hip slightly abbucted, full plantarflexion, tibia internally rotated, with the main direction of isometric for going into hip external rotation. For the upper 1/3 of VM the hip and knee are bent with the foot at the level of the opposite knee. For middle 1/3 the foot is at the level of opposite mid-shin. For VMO the foot is at the level of opposite ankle. These positions very directly bias VM and drive simultaneous afferent/efferent communication between the VM and the CNS, which is what’s needed to address AMI.

This is a very specific scientific claim. Can you cite your references for the statement I just quoted?

 

[troublefunk]

It hurts the most if I reach across my chest and grab the back of the opposing(left) shoulder. None of the er/ir movements caused any discomfort. It's very dull in extension, slightly pronounced at 90 across the chest, and sharp if I grab the shoulder.
It's localized most right around where it meets the pec.

That help?

Yes. Can you compare ROM side to side, you may need someone to help you with that.

 

[troublefunk]

This is what you said:



This is a very specific scientific claim. Can you cite your references for the statement I just quoted?

Ok, gotcha. Nope, no references.

 

[miaou]

Also, what is your educational background, besides being a MAT practitioner?

 

[troublefunk]

I was trying to premise why Miaou's tone may have caused you to push back. I don't think he really meant to be obnoxious, just cautious. Maybe obnoxious, I can't speak for him.

Doesn't matter to me what he meant, if he thinks that's collegial interaction, he's wrong. If he wants to play Forum cop, that's fine, but not everyone is gonna play with him.

 

[LegioTitan]

Yes. Can you compare ROM side to side, you may need someone to help you with that.

Definitely less ROM reaching across in the right than in the left. I can almost choke myself with the left but with the right (painful side) I only get about 70% of the way there. And as it's pushed further back(arm/hand on the left side of my head) the pain increases and moves towards my bicep.

Is that what you meant?

 

[troublefunk]

Definitely less ROM reaching across in the right than in the left. I can almost choke myself with the left but with the right (painful side) I only get about 70% of the way there. And as it's pushed further back(arm/hand on the left side of my head) the pain increases and moves towards my bicep.

Is that what you meant?

Yes, thanks.

So, its possible that the limited ROM is indicative of a problem. Limited ROM is not a guarantee, but it's a good indicator for potential AMI. So the idea is, what are the muscles that should be participating in Horizontal Adduction, that might be inhibited, unable to shorten, unable to create the position? Pec Major Clavicular, Sternal, and Costal divisions, Subclavius, Pec, Anterior Deltoid, Long & Short Head of Biceps, Coracobrachialis. You should do very low intensity isometrics for these muscles.

 

[LegioTitan]

Alright well if you can provide an example for those I'll be happy to try it out. And by low intensity do you just mean positional holds with or without added resistance? Band.. db.. partner??

 

[troublefunk]

Alright well if you can provide an example for those I'll be happy to try it out. And by low intensity do you just mean positional holds with or without added resistance? Band.. db.. partner??

Yes, each muscle has isometric which bias its activity by using a specific position and direction of force.

Pec major clavicular fibers - Setup -lay down on your back put your arm at 90 flexion, pointing toward the ceiling, elbow straight. Move your arm diagonally down and across, so that you end up 20 flexion and 20 horizontal adduction away from the starting position. Slightly internally rotate humerus (upper arm not forearm). Use your other hand to create a barrier to push into, open palm, just above your elbow (toward your shoulder).

Direction of force - You are trying to bias pec major clavicular fibers, so your isometric direction should be your upper arm going toward a spot half way between the inside edge of the clavicle, and where the pec and deltoid meet.

Force - Very light, like 5-10% of your maximal force. You are trying to drive input to a muscle which may be inhibited. You are not trying to increase strength (not at this point) but drive neural input. If the position creates pain, STOP. Come out of the position 5 degrees (meaning away from the mid-point of Pec Major clavicular fibers), and try isometric there.

The problem: If a muscle is very inhibited, the isometric may not work well. In this case palpation of the origin and insertion is the best solution.

 

[miaou]

TS, what is your educational background, besides being a MAT practitioner?

 

[troublefunk]

TS, what is your educational background, besides being a MAT practitioner?

Miaou, I am not sharing any more personal information with this board. Given your shit attitude, I'm sure you can understand why.

 

[Gfreak]

Miaou, I am not sharing any more personal information with this board. Given your shit attitude, I'm sure you can understand why.

I really haven't seen any shit attitude from miaou, although I have seen overly defensive attitude coming from you.

He asked a simple question that's it, if you have a background with this stuff and know what you're talking about. I'm sure everyone here would be more than happy to actually discuss it with you (as legio is doing).

 

[troublefunk]

I really haven't seen any shit attitude from miaou, although I have seen overly defensive attitude coming from you.

He asked a simple question that's it, if you have a background with this stuff and know what you're talking about. I'm sure everyone here would be more than happy to actually discuss it with you (as legio is doing).

This is Miaou's first post to me:
"This sentence doesn't make sense."
That's a shit attitude. He's making an assumption that if he doesn't understand it, it doesn't make sense. As I have stated before, if he had said "I don't understand what this means". "Can you explain what you mean". "Elaborate." I would have been happy to respond. In fact I did respond with ZERO attitude, and he came back again with: "If whoever you asked about it has never heard of it then you need to associate yourself with less incompetent individuals."
Me responding to his obnoxiousness is not defensive at all. All this has been covered so far in the thread. Several others have accused me of being the shit stirrer or being defensive, I have responded by deconstructing the thread and showing that's not the case. Show me one place where I start shit with anyone. I am simply responding to other statement in kind. That's not defensive.

Miaou didn't want a discussion, he wanted to assert himself. I pushed back. Why is that such a big deal?

I am not giving more personal details.

 

[NurseKnuckles]

Fuck, am I having a deja vu?

 

[Gfreak]

This is Miaou's first post to me:
"This sentence doesn't make sense."
That's a shit attitude. He's making an assumption that if he doesn't understand it, it doesn't make sense. As I have stated before, if he had said "I don't understand what this means". "Can you explain what you mean". "Elaborate." I would have been happy to respond. In fact I did respond with ZERO attitude, and he came back again with: "If whoever you asked about it has never heard of it then you need to associate yourself with less incompetent individuals."
Me responding to his obnoxiousness is not defensive at all. All this has been covered so far in the thread. Several others have accused me of being the shit stirrer or being defensive, I have responded by deconstructing the thread and showing that's not the case. Show me one place where I start shit with anyone. I am simply responding to other statement in kind. That's not defensive.

Miaou didn't want a discussion, he wanted to assert himself. I pushed back. Why is that such a big deal?

I am not giving more personal details.

No, that sentence LITERALLY made no sense. Because it was a fragment, and didn't allude directly to what WAS the single greatest cause.

If you had included what you were talking about, in that sentence. Then it would've made sense. But gramatically, and literally, it just plain made no sense.

 

[ripskater]

This is Miaou's first post to me:
"This sentence doesn't make sense."
That's a shit attitude. He's making an assumption that if he doesn't understand it, it doesn't make sense. As I have stated before, if he had said "I don't understand what this means". "Can you explain what you mean". "Elaborate." I would have been happy to respond. In fact I did respond with ZERO attitude, and he came back again with: "If whoever you asked about it has never heard of it then you need to associate yourself with less incompetent individuals."
Me responding to his obnoxiousness is not defensive at all. All this has been covered so far in the thread. Several others have accused me of being the shit stirrer or being defensive, I have responded by deconstructing the thread and showing that's not the case. Show me one place where I start shit with anyone. I am simply responding to other statement in kind. That's not defensive.

Miaou didn't want a discussion, he wanted to assert himself. I pushed back. Why is that such a big deal?

I am not giving more personal details.

Don't worry about it Funk. Don't bother explaning your actions either. Just ignore it. It's a waste of your time.