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Toonie to the rescue!
Arthrogenic Muscle Inhibition
- Thread starter troublefunk
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Sorry, but unless you know something about the subject (which you don't) then you are already riding miaou's dick and defending your own.
I don't feel like I'm being defensive at all. Read back through the posts. When miaou digs at me, I did back at him. I am following his lead every step of the way. What's the big fucking deal? Is debating with miaou not allowed? Why the intense need to white knight miaou?
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Shit. I already made Tosa pay my tab at the pub... I gotta go... Threads always get good when I have to leave.
Pearse Shields
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I know. Seems as though troublefunk is troubled, and in a funk.
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Internet. Srs bidness.
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If you want to follow miaou around and white knight him that's OK with me. But when you call me out, I'm gonna respond.
If that means I'm taking it too seriously, I'm OK with that too.
Hydroximal
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That covered the why doesn't so and so know this stuff area. In my experience, the general idea was even covered in my first year of school.
Miaou didn't even address the study, all he commented on was this:
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Now we are getting to the point. I absolutely did not start the digs. But you and the rest of miaou's fanboys are so sensitive and protective that you read what you wanted to read.
Here's the opening salvo from miaou: "If whoever you asked about it has never heard of it then you need to associate yourself with less incompetent individuals."
That's a provocative comment. So I responded.
In my fairly extensive discussions with Doctors, OS's, PT's, AT's, generally AMI is not something they are very familiar with. The hundreds of my clients who have been to OS's and PT's have never been told that AMI is potentially a major part of their problem. Apparently miaou has a different experience. If he had expressed that in a different way I would have responded in a different way.
He was trying to provoke a reaction and I reacted. Why is that a big deal? If miaou wants to push at someone, thats OK, but he shouldn't be surprised when someone pushes back.
It's NOT a big deal for me. My original post was the study, with no commentary. My goal was to share the information and participate in a discussion.
But apparently for you fanboys it is a big deal, because disagreeing with miaou is not allowed. I would say generally you shouldn't take sides in an discussion that you know nothing about.
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Thanks you for your research and input troublefunk.
While i agree that AMI is something relevant to any athlete and person on this board, I have only had one significant injury in my lifetime which caused immobilisation of a limb and required rehab and early in that rehab piece my physio recognised it and prescribed exercises to correct the issue, so I tend to disagree with your statement that AMI is
"the single biggest factor in loss of physical function, performance, strength, ROM, and biggest single causal factor in breakdown, injury, inability to recover from injury. Mostly ignored by the medical, fitness, s & c communities."
If anything it was the result of injury, not the cause and in my case it was not ignored, but recognised and dealt with early in the rehab process.
This is only my personal experience and not supported by any research of the knowledge and attitude of sports medicine professionals.
While i agree that AMI is something relevant to any athlete and person on this board, I have only had one significant injury in my lifetime which caused immobilisation of a limb and required rehab and early in that rehab piece my physio recognised it and prescribed exercises to correct the issue, so I tend to disagree with your statement that AMI is
"the single biggest factor in loss of physical function, performance, strength, ROM, and biggest single causal factor in breakdown, injury, inability to recover from injury. Mostly ignored by the medical, fitness, s & c communities."
If anything it was the result of injury, not the cause and in my case it was not ignored, but recognised and dealt with early in the rehab process.
This is only my personal experience and not supported by any research of the knowledge and attitude of sports medicine professionals.
Eric Brown
Crusty old bastard
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1) Ok. I wasn't talking to you, that was a direct response to toonie, in fact I quoted him in that post. Why are you taking offense to something clearly not directed at you. Just want to get in on the action?
2) If responding to miaou's provocative comment, and then responding to white knighting makes me a dick in your eyes, I am 100% OK with that.
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ripskater
Guest
TF, it's near impossible to just have a polite conversation in f13. That's a difficult thing here. Make one statement that's not in line with the groupthink and get ready for the insults to start flying your way. There is more venom in this subforum than anything I've ever seen on the web. There's a few that would probably like to discuss but it's hard when every thread gets turned into what you see here. Not your fault TF, just know that you're chatting with adults that still act like they're in junior high.
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ripskater
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The burden of proof is high in f13.
about it.
That's your answer? Show me proof or I'll act like a jackass? That seems to sum up many attitudes here.
Hydroximal
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This is legitimate butthurt of the highest order.
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ripskater
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Whatever you say man.
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Thanks for your response. Your use of "physio" makes me think you are from Canada, the UK, Australia? Maybe the rehab communities there concentrate much more on AMI than here in the US. Which might explain the different experiences that Miaou and I have in this area. In my experience in the US, medical professionals talk some about "inhibition" but do not use treatments which effectively address inhibition.
The sort of biofeedback you describe does work, but IN MY OPINION is inefficient because it's using voluntary effort to try to improve an involuntary neurological deficit. My opinion is based on working with clients who had been treated with this process and came to me still exhibiting significant AMI. Perhaps the biofeedback improved their activation levels, and maybe they were not treated for long enough. It sounds like you got good results, which is great. Sadly in my experience very few people get this treatment. Mostly the "strech and strengthen" routine.
The exception to this “voluntary effort” piece is position-specific, very-low intensity isometrics. For most muscles there is a specific position with a specific direction of force that does a very good job of biasing participation of that specific muscle. Some muscles have more than one position specific isometric. So terminal knee extensions are primarily going to bias articularis genu and rectus femoris, but not Vastus Medialis or Vastus Lateralis. To bias VM the client lies on their back, hip slightly abbucted, full plantarflexion, tibia internally rotated, with the main direction of isometric for going into hip external rotation. For the upper 1/3 of VM the hip and knee are bent with the foot at the level of the opposite knee. For middle 1/3 the foot is at the level of opposite mid-shin. For VMO the foot is at the level of opposite ankle. These positions very directly bias VM and drive simultaneous afferent/efferent communication between the VM and the CNS, which is what’s needed to address AMI. Regarding intensity, if a muscle is inhibited, even in an isometric position which bias the muscle, if the force is too high you will drive compensatory muscle action and not generate the neural input that is essential to this process. This is why most traditional resistance training, even what is thought of as relatively moderate, do not effectively address AMI.
I think lots of people have the experience you have, where inhibition follows injury. Certainly that's when it's noticed, and that's why the medical literature focuses on AMI in the aftermath of injury/surgery. However, every day I work with people including Professional/College Athletes who come to me with physical dysfunction, pain, fatigue, tightness and other symptoms. For many clients identifying and correcting AMI significantly reduces or eliminates their issues.
For many people static stretching causes inhibition, both of the muscles stretched and the muscles shortened on the other side of the axis. For many people foam rolling inhibits muscles. AMI is a protective response generated by the CNS due to muscle overuse, nociception, and excessive force at joint end ranges (whether accompanied by injury or not).
Regarding "causing" injury. What if a person has inhibition of several right foot/ankle supinators/inverters ( say post tibialis, ant tibialis, medial gastroc, medial soleus) and is therefore unable to effectively eccentrically control the pronation response of the foot/ankle at footstrike. And this person has inhibition of several right hip external rotators (say glute max, posterior glute med, posterior glute min, and quadratus femoris) and is therefore unable to effectively eccentrically control the pronation response of the hip at foot strike. When running or landing on one foot this person is likely exhibit a significant valgus knee angle, and place excessive forces on the medial knee due to inablitity to control pronation at foot/ankle and hip. Now, what if this person has inhibition of several medial knee muscles (medial gastroc, semimembranosus, semiteninosus, sartorius), and is unable to effectively control valgus forces applied to the knee. Would you not agree that this person is at significantly elevated risk for knee injury: acl tear, mcl tear, meniscus damage?
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Is this hyperbole? In your OP, AMI is described as a particular type of injury to the joint area causing the muscle to lose the ability to contract properly. I would love to see some statistics that support the idea that injuries to the joint are a significant proportion of injuries in general, let alone AMI being the single biggest factor in the maladies you describe above.
Sounds like we have an AMI junkie on our hands. I can relate though. I have gotten my hands on a few tidbits of esoteric knowledge that I just couldn't keep to myself, and so I went to various Internet chatboards to boast about said knowledge in the hopes that I would somehow win the Internet, or at least a portion thereof. Doesn't ever pan out though. You'll be gone soon.
ETA I would guess that blunt force trauma and atherosclerosis are both bigger factors than AMI.
