Arm Wrestling Legend Devon Larrat grappling with Firas Zahabi

[Kforcer]

I could see a can opener doing damage if bottom guy is hellbent on finishing a leglock, but I've honestly never even considered them from anywhere other than stalemated in closed guard. Maybe I'm off but I feel like from almost any other position (assuming he's focused on defending the can opener), bottom guy has room to move and can shut it down. But even inside closed guard, there are defenses bottom guy can do as long as he reacts early enough.

But I've always considered it a bit of a dick move and would never even attempt it on someone much smaller or weaker. Only on guys at least same size and if they're stalling with closed guard.

Definitely a lot of defenses to it, I mean, armbar for one. And if you can control the top man's hips and posture, he can't really do so much with it.

So what about the full nelson or reverse nelson? Would you think a flexible neck would essentially neutralize the damage from those? The reverse nelson always looked scary as heck to me.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Definitely a lot of defenses to it, I mean, armbar for one. And if you can control the top man's hips and posture, he can't really do so much with it.

So what about the full nelson or reverse nelson? Would you think a flexible neck would essentially neutralize the damage from those? The reverse nelson always looked scary as heck to me.

I don't have much experience with the reverse half but I would think the full nelson would be the most dangerous. Assuming it's a strong guy applying it, guy on the receiving end is pretty much fucked and unlike a can opener, the attacker can continue to apply pressure even with neck bent past 90 degrees, using victim's own arms as fulcrums. Even if victim has a super flexible neck, enough pressure will eventually choke him out.

Do you ever attempt full nelsons in your grappling game? My BJJ brainwashing keeps telling me they're impractical but even in BJJ I often find myself reverting back to wrestling half nelsons as a control hold, and it wouldn't be much of an adjustment to slip the other arm in for a full nelson.

 

[rmongler]

Definitely a lot of defenses to it, I mean, armbar for one. And if you can control the top man's hips and posture, he can't really do so much with it.

So what about the full nelson or reverse nelson? Would you think a flexible neck would essentially neutralize the damage from those? The reverse nelson always looked scary as heck to me.

It's actually really easy to dislocate someone with a full nelson from the back, compared to trying the same thing with a can opener on the front.

Break them down, put the boots in, drive over, and pop the grape.

 

[Kforcer]

Do you ever attempt full nelsons in your grappling game?

I basically just don't do neck cranks, period. After a certain point I started staying away from stuff that could actually "hurt" people, i.e., give them something that would stay with them after practice and possible give them residual damage. The reverse nelson is very dangerous, IMO. I'm sure you've seen it before. As far as half-nelsons, quarter nelsons, etc., I think they're an awesome part of a grappling game. There are so many things they can setup or chain into, they're great for establishing control, etc.

As far as deadly wrestling-related neck cranks, including nelsons, Dan Severn had some devastating stuff when I used to train at his place. He has a neck-crank based on the power-half that is absolutely lethal. He demo'd it on me and I accidentally tapped my body instead of his, so people had to yell to him that I was tapping. Definitely hurt.

 

[Kforcer]

Here's an example of a reverse nelson:
Didn't Anderson Silva reverse a dude from guard with this? Obviously, not a rare move by any means, but it was hard for me to think of specific instances off the top of my head. Beyond the Lion's Den and Shamrock's earlier book, The Lion's Den, both featured it.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I basically just don't do neck cranks, period. After a certain point I started staying away from stuff that could actually "hurt" people, i.e., give them something that would stay with them after practice and possible give them residual damage. The reverse nelson is very dangerous, IMO. I'm sure you've seen it before. As far as half-nelsons, quarter nelsons, etc., I think they're an awesome part of a grappling game. There are so many things they can setup or chain into, they're great for establishing control, etc.

As far as deadly wrestling-related neck cranks, including nelsons, Dan Severn had some devastating stuff when I used to train at his place. He has a neck-crank based on the power-half that is absolutely lethal. He demo'd it on me and I accidentally tapped my body instead of his, so people had to yell to him that I was tapping. Definitely hurt.

Here's an example of a reverse nelson:
Didn't Anderson Silva reverse a dude from guard with this? Obviously, not a rare move by any means, but it was hard for me to think of specific instances off the top of my head. Beyond the Lion's Den and Shamrock's earlier book, The Lion's Den, both featured it.

I recall Anderson doing it but since you mention Lion's Den, this reminds me of the crucifix neck crank Jerry Bohlander subbed Nick Sanzo with in 39 seconds, but that was from side control IIRC. I've never attempted this from closed guard but I need to try it out next time I'm stalemated there. I'm considerate enough to not crank a can opener but this looks like it might be another way to get them to open their guard and chain into a guillotine, a guard pass or pancake them into side control.

 

[Kforcer]

I recall Anderson doing it but since you mention Lion's Den, this reminds me of the crucifix neck crank Jerry Bohlander subbed Nick Sanzo with in 39 seconds, but that was from side control IIRC. I've never attempted this from closed guard but I need to try it out next time I'm stalemated there. I'm considerate enough to not crank a can opener but this looks like it might be another way to get them to open their guard and chain into a guillotine, a guard pass or pancake them into side control.

Yeah, Bohlander is an example of what I was thinking of. Maybe even the specific example I was thinking of; didn't he reverse a guy into that position? I mean, you have the guy in the video doing it to an opponent in guard, which seems like it could be pretty risky and Silva doing it from closed guard, but the Lion's Den variation and what I usually think of is someone catching the hold from a more neutral position and then flipping the guy over into the finishing positioning or forcing him into it by leveraging it.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Yeah, Bohlander is an example of what I was thinking of. Maybe even the specific example I was thinking of; didn't he reverse a guy into that position? I mean, you have the guy in the video doing it to an opponent in guard, which seems like it could be pretty risky and Silva doing it from closed guard, but the Lion's Den variation and what I usually think of is someone catching the hold from a more neutral position and then flipping the guy over into the finishing positioning or forcing him into it by leveraging it.

Haven't seen it in years, but just looked and yeah Bohlander attacks it to defend the single - he gets double underhooks then rolls into crucifix for the neck crank sub.



Agree doing it from inside closed guard looks like it might be risky but I like how they're setting it up with a can opener. I need to try this out this week but almost looks like it could also be used as a variation on a tozi pass the way it gets bottom guy folded over like that.

Going for reverse nelson from closed guard also looks interesting and potentially less risky. Looks like it might chain well from a position I've heard called rat guard. I used to train under the guy showing it in the video below and I can attest he is extremely legit.

 

[rmongler]

Here's an example of a reverse nelson:
Didn't Anderson Silva reverse a dude from guard with this? Obviously, not a rare move by any means, but it was hard for me to think of specific instances off the top of my head. Beyond the Lion's Den and Shamrock's earlier book, The Lion's Den, both featured it.

I personally always knew this move as a cowcatcher, though some people call a half-hatch/cement mixer a 'cow catcher' too.

Similarly when i hear 'reverse nelson' what i think of is a crossface shoulder choke, which is what a lot of wrestlers who show that pin will call it.

 

[Kforcer]

I personally always knew this move as a cowcatcher, though some people call a half-hatch/cement mixer a 'cow catcher' too.

Similarly when i hear 'reverse nelson' what i think of is a crossface shoulder choke, which is what a lot of wrestlers who show that pin will call it.

Well, not me! So I guess it is....TIME TO CHANGE YOUR NAME FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Kforcer]

Going for reverse nelson from closed guard also looks interesting and potentially less risky. Looks like it might chain well from a position I've heard called rat guard. I used to train under the guy showing it in the video below and I can attest he is extremely legit.

It can definitely make for a good chain off of a Kimura or hip-bump attempt from closed guard. I've hit it from there a few times. I used to hit the Bohlander-style version, back when I was more reckless with other people's bodies. I don't know squat about anatomy, so I used to sorta look at submissions in the vein of pro-wrestling or video games where they sorta drain your energy more than damage you.

 

[ChickenBrother]

It can definitely make for a good chain off of a Kimura or hip-bump attempt from closed guard. I've hit it from there a few times. I used to hit the Bohlander-style version, back when I was more reckless with other people's bodies. I don't know squat about anatomy, so I used to sorta look at submissions in the vein of pro-wrestling or video games where they sorta drain your energy more than damage you.

Sounds like it would work great off a kimura sweep attempt, but I've never been explosive enough off my back to hit that except against total noobs. Usually I go for kimura trap and do the GSP sweep if they defend by grabbing their pants.

Well, not me! So I guess it is....TIME TO CHANGE YOUR NAME FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How do we know you didn't just pull "reverse full nelson" out of your magician's hat? We're onto you... Presto.

 

[Kforcer]

Sounds like it would work great off a kimura sweep attempt, but I've never been explosive enough off my back to hit that except against total noobs. Usually I go for kimura trap and do the GSP sweep if they defend by grabbing their pants.



How do we know you didn't just pull "reverse full nelson" out of your magician's hat? We're onto you... Presto.

Okay, maybe, just maybe I got the name from those same fake articles I use to rewrite the history of catch-as-catch-can... I've got some good stuff in there.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Okay, maybe, just maybe I got the name from those same fake articles I use to rewrite the history of catch-as-catch-can... I've got some good stuff in there.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Here's an example of a reverse nelson:
Didn't Anderson Silva reverse a dude from guard with this? Obviously, not a rare move by any means, but it was hard for me to think of specific instances off the top of my head. Beyond the Lion's Den and Shamrock's earlier book, The Lion's Den, both featured it.

So I tried this out before class yesterday from both guard and inside other guy's guard and the only way I could finish it was from guard, pancake sweeping guy into side crucifix position like Bohlander did. From there it's an easy tap by rolling your torso into back of other guy's neck.

From inside guard, where do the finishing mechanics come from? With other guy's head under my armpit, I wasn't able to generate anywhere near enough force without muscling the shit out of it which seems inefficient and low %. From vid I can see guy in black shirt is using gable grip with palm of near side arm facing away. Blue shirt guy appears to be pushing his lat into other guy's neck making it similar to crucifix finish, but black shirt guy doesn't appear to be doing that.

 

[rmongler]

So I tried this out before class yesterday from both guard and inside other guy's guard and the only way I could finish it was from guard, pancake sweeping guy into side crucifix position like Bohlander did. From there it's an easy tap by rolling your torso into back of other guy's neck.

From inside guard, where do the finishing mechanics come from? With other guy's head under my armpit, I wasn't able to generate anywhere near enough force without muscling the shit out of it which seems inefficient and low %. From vid I can see guy in black shirt is using gable grip with palm of near side arm facing away. Blue shirt guy appears to be pushing his lat into other guy's neck making it similar to crucifix finish, but black shirt guy doesn't appear to be doing that.

If you get it inside the guard i'd focus more on bunching the arms and getting the chicken wing.

In general a nelson hold can provide three potential finishes: a choke, a crank, and a shoulder lock.

 

[Kforcer]

So I tried this out before class yesterday from both guard and inside other guy's guard and the only way I could finish it was from guard, pancake sweeping guy into side crucifix position like Bohlander did. From there it's an easy tap by rolling your torso into back of other guy's neck.

From inside guard, where do the finishing mechanics come from? With other guy's head under my armpit, I wasn't able to generate anywhere near enough force without muscling the shit out of it which seems inefficient and low %. From vid I can see guy in black shirt is using gable grip with palm of near side arm facing away. Blue shirt guy appears to be pushing his lat into other guy's neck making it similar to crucifix finish, but black shirt guy doesn't appear to be doing that.

Short answer is that I usually used it to sweep someone from guard, i.e., go for the kimura or hip bump, that's blocked, go to the reverse nelson on the other side for the sweep. But if they're subbed, they're subbed.

AJ McKee basically does it from guard against Caldwell. I think the issue there is that Caldwell--though a terrific grappler--basically gave away his posture, which created much of the opportunity to have submission-level pressure.

 

[ChickenBrother]

If you get it inside the guard i'd focus more on bunching the arms and getting the chicken wing.

In general a nelson hold can provide three potential finishes: a choke, a crank, and a shoulder lock.

By "chicken wing," do you mean keylock/americana? Yeah I can see that getting this inside guard would get them thinking about a guillotine, allowing you to isolate the far arm. I feel like a kimura would be there as well, and from there I'd probably initiate a roll into a GSP sweep.

Short answer is that I usually used it to sweep someone from guard, i.e., go for the kimura or hip bump, that's blocked, go to the reverse nelson on the other side for the sweep. But if they're subbed, they're subbed.

AJ McKee basically does it from guard against Caldwell. I think the issue there is that Caldwell--though a terrific grappler--basically gave away his posture, which created much of the opportunity to have submission-level pressure.

That's nice but I see what you mean with Caldwell basically giving him the position. Interesting that McKee turns to his side effectively making it like an inverted crucifix finish.

 

[rmongler]

By "chicken wing," do you mean keylock/americana? Yeah I can see that getting this inside guard would get them thinking about a guillotine, allowing you to isolate the far arm. I feel like a kimura would be there as well, and from there I'd probably initiate a roll into a GSP sweep.



That's nice but I see what you mean with Caldwell basically giving him the position. Interesting that McKee turns to his side effectively making it like an inverted crucifix finish.

By chicken wing i mean essentially any movement that hyperextends the shoulder behind the back. Basically, putting the guy in a double hammerlock.

The shoulder separation from most any kind of nelson hold makes for a very easy submission.

 

[ChickenBrother]

By chicken wing i mean essentially any movement that hyperextends the shoulder behind the back. Basically, putting the guy in a double hammerlock.

The shoulder separation from most any kind of nelson hold makes for a very easy submission.

The problem I've had applying this kind of stuff is that no BJJ or sub grappling guy will willingly go to their stomach like this to avoid a pin. Quite the opposite, they're going to be turning to face you and the best I've been able to consistently apply is a near side cradle or half nelson to control them into a pin from side control. Currently working on chaining that into some kind of sub because I usually end up having to bail on the half nelson and going to an arm triangle or kimura. I know there's got to be some kind of neck crank I'm missing though.