Arm in Guillotine

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by scorcho, Aug 29, 2005.

  1. scorcho

    scorcho Brown Belt

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    Hi guys,

    I just watched Rumina Sato's loss to Pequeno Noguiera and saw a clip of Jeremy Horn subbing David "the Crow" Loiseau last week prior to UFC 54. Both Noguiera and Horn tapped their opponents very quickly with a guillotine with the arm in (like Pete Sell did to Baroni, but in under 10 seconds). Bas always says that a guillotine with the arm in is not dangerous (and I have never had to tap to one) but apparently it is if you know how to do it right.

    So, anyone have any advice on how to make a guillotine work with the arm in? Is there a special grip you have to use or bend your body a certain way?

    Also, interestingly enough, both Horn and Nog tapped their opponents with the arm in guillotine from a standing guard pull (what Stephen Quadros calls the "Koala bear position"). Is this at all important?

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
     
  2. jpark4

    jpark4 Yellow Belt

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    doesn't the arm give a better support to cut the blood flow off? almost like an arm-triangle. i might be wrong.
    -Jon
     
  3. scorcho

    scorcho Brown Belt

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    Yea, but the grip is very different, and I don't think that you can get your opponent to cut of his/her artery with their own shoulder with an arm in guillotine as you do in an side or anaconda choke, though I may be wrong and am just using the wrong grip.
     
  4. mogway

    mogway Blue Belt

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    it's different grip when the arm is in. Insted of grabbing you other hand or wrist, you need cross your arms ( sort of like when you stand with arms crossed around your chest) and bend to the side.
    Works for me very well
     
  5. scorcho

    scorcho Brown Belt

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    Which way do you bend, away from the neck (towards the arm) or towards the neck (away from the arm)?
     
  6. mogway

    mogway Blue Belt

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    away from the arm, and also you have to either trap opponents legs in your guard or half guard
     
  7. scorcho

    scorcho Brown Belt

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    Thanks, I will give that a try.
     
  8. colinm

    colinm Brown Belt

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    renzo did it in an early pride event too.

    i think when you get to that elite level you have a ton of little tricks up your sleeve for squeezing out chokes. like altering your grip a little bit, flexing your wrist into the guy's arteries, climbing up with your fingers, wiggling your wrist to sink it in tighter, body positioning to get more leverage etc....in short in saying that if you're really good you can get an arm in guillotine against someone as strong/stronger than you....but as for me, i just wind up getting my arms tired.
     
  9. Stephan Kesting

    Stephan Kesting Green Belt

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    This isn't how most people do it, but I've been having some success with the following variation (I just can't get the 'regular' head and arm guillotine to work for me, possibly due to my chimp-like arms).

    1 - start with your partner/opponent on his knees. You have him in a front headlock: your arms encircling his head and right arm. Your right fist is resting in your left palm ("cup and saucer grip")

    2 - Now dip your right shoulder a bit and slide your right arm in deeper, passing it over top of your left forearm. Your right palm grips your left arm, just at the base of the tricep, above the elbow. Your left palm cups your right elbow.

    Basically you are grabbing your own elbows, which means that there are now two forearms underneath his head and a lot less space and the guillotine requires a lot less strength. Someone called this the "Genie Grip" and I think that's a pretty good name for it.

    3 - Now drive into him: he will usually drive back into you, rising up a bit and creating room for you to:

    4 - Fall back to half guard, trapping his right leg between your own legs

    5 - squeeze and watch him tap from a choke/strangle/neck crank!

    KEY POINTS:

    1 - Make sure that your right arm is in DEEP. The crook of your right elbow should be right over his windpipe, NOT your forearm

    2 - Fall on your side for the half guard. Make sure you trap his right arm with 'the grip' and his right leg with your legs

    3 - When applying the actual guillotine make sure you KEEP YOUR CHIN ON HIS BACK. This will prevent you from loosening your grip as you arch.

    Give this one a try and let me know how it goes.

    Stephan Kesting
    www.grapplearts.com
     
  10. scorcho

    scorcho Brown Belt

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    Thanks for the detailed description, I will give that a try.
     
  11. Ci$co

    Ci$co Hybrid Submission Artist

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    ..You'll note that this is how Hallman got Hughes in his first victory ... tight guillotine, legs pinned against the cage...yer out!
     
  12. S.D.Force

    S.D.Force Blue Belt

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    Stephen, you are the man! Thanks for such good insight. I love the arm in guilltine yet i've never tried that kind of alternate grip. I never thought of it, but it sounds like a great idea.

    I've got all of your tapes. When are you coming out with some new technique stuff? What are your potential topic items? Thanks
     
  13. Stephan Kesting

    Stephan Kesting Green Belt

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    S.D. Force - I am a few days away from releasing "My Mixed Martial Arts", which covers the favorite techniques and training methods of Denis Kang (2-0 in Pride)

    Check out the clip on the Anaconda choke thread if you want a preview of it

    Stephan
    www.grapplearts.com
     
  14. wenispinkle

    wenispinkle Skankin' It Easy...

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    that grip looks horrible...i just did it with my arms out in front of me and the space is tiny...must be horrible for your head and arm to be in......just like when you look at the tiny space when you triangle your legs....bllecck....great grip thanks stephen
     
  15. The Sickness

    The Sickness Ichizoku

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    Marcello shows a cool variation on his sub wrestling set...
     
  16. Smorra

    Smorra Blue Belt

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    Just to be sure- Is this thread about the version where the arm that is trapped is on the same side as the head, or on the opposite side as the head?
     
  17. S.D.Force

    S.D.Force Blue Belt

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    clarify your question....
     
  18. Smorra

    Smorra Blue Belt

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    When you go for a gullotine, you could possibly end of with one of several types of guillotine, unless you readjust:

    1. Just his head: standard guillotine

    2. His head on one side of your body and one arm on the other side of your body: opposite-side-arm-trapped guillotine. This is the only other type of guillotine I've seen used in competition, and I would guess that this is what Stephen and everyone else on this thread is refering to, as the Arm-in-Guillotine. A lot of the common guillotine counters (reach over the shoulder, etc.) can't be used against this version, because the arm that would be used is tied up. You can use the free arm to do an elbow-in-thigh guard break, which he can't defend unless he releases the guillotine. (thanks, Johil 'Do)

    3. His head and one arm, both on the same side of your body: I haven't seen anyone do this in competition, but I've done it a couple of times in class. There are actualy two versions of this:
    3a. Trapping his head and left arm, both with your right arm, both on your right side: This leaves his right arm free to reach over your shoulder to counter your attempts to stretch him out.
    3b. Trap his head and and right arm both in your right arm, on your right side: This prevents his reach over counter, but he may be able to use his free arm to break your guard.

    4. His head and both arms: I've never tried these two, or seen even seen them, but I imagine they may still work, at least as neck cranks, and would have the unique advantage of foiling common guillotine counters, because all the ones I know of require the other guy to have at least one arm free.
    4a. One arm on the same side of your body as his head, and the other on the opposite side of your body.
    4b. Both arms on the same side of your body as his head: I imagine this would be the hardest to pull off, and if it did work, it would be strictly a neck crank.

    Has anyone seen or tried any of these other variations? I would, but right now I'm nursing an injured neck from excaping triangles using the foot-in-armpit escape.
     
  19. TheHighlander

    TheHighlander Green Belt

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    I run into 3b all the time. Usually it isnt' done with full guard, but with more of a halfguard (same side as the trapped arm) type position (not actually half-guard, but on your side with your top shin across his waist.

    Never seen 3a and doubt it would work (at least on me). The only double arm traps I have seen have involved trapping one or both arms with the legs while guillotining (with #1 or #2). I can't see #4 working at all, provided you can even get that position.
     
  20. qiksilverman

    qiksilverman Blue Belt

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    ttt...i know I'm bringing up an old topic but I'm curious about more grips ive tried the greco palm in palm grip as showed by cesar gracie and it seems to work but i'm so not used to it any other info
     

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