Arginine/Ornithine

Discussion in 'Dieting / Supplement Discussion' started by Plum, Jul 18, 2005.

  1. Plum

    Plum Brown Belt

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    How many of you have tried these? I have read they are great pre-workout, and give good results.
     
  2. mmacoach

    mmacoach Guest

    Arginine and lysine is a better combination.
     
  3. Chad Hamilton

    Chad Hamilton Amateur Fighter

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    Arginine and Ornithine have been used together for a while now in many heart and cardiovascular formulas because they relax to veins and arteries for enhanced blood flow leading to greater dilation.
    Better workout.
     
  4. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I would actually use Arginine/Ornithine, stacked with Lysine, in fact I do plan to use this in the new stack I'm building for myself that's heavy on the aminos. The only drawback to Aginine/Ornithine is like the NO products, you have to take a shitload of them for it to work properly.
     
  5. mmacoach

    mmacoach Guest

    Not really.
     
  6. mmacoach

    mmacoach Guest

    Acute effect of amino acid ingestion and resistance exercise on plasma growth hormone concentration in young men.

    Suminski RR, Robertson RJ, Goss FL, Arslanian S, Kang J, DaSilva S, Utter AC, Metz KF.

    Human Performance Laboratory, University of Houston, TX 77204, USA.

    Sixteen men completed four trials at random as follows: (Trial A) performance of a single bout of resistance exercise preceded by placebo ingestion (vitamin C); (Trial B) ingestion of 1,500 mg L-arginine and 1,500 mg L-lysine, immediately followed by exercise as in Trial A; (Trial C) ingestion of amino acids as in Trial B and no exercise; (Trial D) placebo ingestion and no exercise. Growth hormone (GH) concentrations were higher at 30, 60, and 90 min during the exercise trials (A and B) compared with the resting trials (C and D) (p < .05). No differences were noted in [GH] between the exercise trials. [GH] was significantly elevated during resting conditions 60 min after amino acid ingestion compared with the placebo trial. It was concluded that ingestion of 1,500 mg arginine and 1,500 mg lysine immediately before resistance exercise does not alter exercise-induced changes in [GH] in young men. However, when the same amino acid mixture is ingested under basal conditions, the acute secretion of GH is increased.

    Current Medical Research & Opinion

    Vol. 7, No. 7, 1981

    A. Isidori M.D. A. Lo Monaco, M.D.& M. Cappa, M.D.
    Medical Clinic V. University of Rome, Rome, Italy. Received: 13th March 1981

    Summary

    A study was carried out in 15 male volunteers to evaluate qualitatively the secretion of growth factors following stimulation by oral amino acids. the results showed that oral administration of a combination of two amino acids (1200 mg l-lysine plus 1200 mg l-arginine pyroglutanate) provoked a release of pituitary somatotrophin & insulin. This phenomenon was reproducible & the growth hormone secreted in response to this stimulation had biological activity (as demonstrated by radiorecepter assay & somatomedin induction). The effect appeared to be specific to the combination of the two amino acids; neither of the amino acids demonstrated appreciable stimulating activity when administered alone, even at the same doses.


    There is also another intersting study in whic ARG blunted the inhibitory effect of IGF-1 on GH release

    Arginine counteracts the inhibitory effect of recombinant human insulin-like growth factor I on the somatotroph responsiveness to growth hormone-releasing hormone in humans.

    Gianotti L, Maccario M, Lanfranco F, Ramunni J, Di Vito L, Grottoli S, Muller EE, Ghigo E, Arvat E.

    Department of Internal Medicine, University of Turin, Italy.

    Insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) exerts a negative feedback effect on GH secretion via either direct actions at the pituitary level or indirect ones at the hypothalamic level, through stimulation of somatostatin (SS) and/or inhibition of GHRH release. In fact, recombinant human IGF-I (rhIGF-I) in humans inhibits spontaneous GH secretion as well as the GH response to GHRH and even more to GH/GH-releasing peptides, whose main action is on the hypothalamus, antagonizing SS and enhancing GHRH activity. The aim of the present study was to further clarify in humans the mechanisms underlying IGF-I-induced inhibition of somatotroph secretion. In six normal young volunteers (all women; mean +/- SEM: age, 28.3+/-1.2 yr; body mass index, 21.3+/-1.2 kg/m2) we studied the GH response to GHRH (1 microg/kg, iv, at 0 min), both alone and combined with arginine (ARG; 0.5 g/kg, iv, from 0-30 min), which probably acts via inhibition of hypothalamic SS release, after pretreatment with rhIGF-I (20 microg/kg, sc, at -180 min) or placebo. rhIGF-I increased circulating IGF-I levels (peak at -60 vs. -180 min: 54.9+/-3.9 vs. 35.9+/-3.3 mmol/L; P < 0.05) to a reproducible extent, and these levels remained stable and within the normal range until 90 min. The mean GH concentration over 3 h (from -180 to 0 min) before ARG and/or GHRH was not modified by placebo or rhIGF-I. After placebo, the GH response to GHRH (peak, 23.6+/-2.9 microg/L) was strikingly enhanced (P < 0.05) by ARG coadministration (69.6+/-9.9 microg/L). rhIGF-I blunted the GH response to GHRH (13.1+/-4.5 microg/L; P < 0.05), whereas that to GHRH plus ARG was not modified (59.5+/-8.9 microg/L), although it occurred with some delay. Mean glucose and insulin concentrations were not modified by either placebo or rhIGF-I. In conclusion, ARG counteracts the inhibitory effect of rhIGF-I on somatotroph responsiveness to GHRH in humans. These findings suggest that the acute inhibitory effect of rhIGF-I on the GH response to GHRH takes place on the hypothalamus, possibly via enhancement of SS release, and that ARG overrides this action.
     
  7. mmacoach

    mmacoach Guest

    Here is a more detailed explanation of the Isidori study:

    Current Medical Research & Opinion

    Vol. 7, No. 7, 1981

    A. Isidori M.D. A. Lo Monaco, M.D.& M. Cappa, M.D.
    Medical Clinic V. University of Rome, Rome, Italy. Received: 13th March 1981

    Summary

    A study was carried out in 15 male volunteers to evaluate qualitatively the secretion of growth factors following stimulation by oral amino acids. the results showed that oral administration of a combination of two amino acids (1200 mg l-lysine plus 1200 mg l-arginine pyroglutanate) provoked a release of pituitary somatotrophin & insulin. This phenomenon was reproducible & the growth hormone secreted in response to this stimulation had biological activity (as demonstrated by radiorecepter assay & somatomedin induction). The effect appeared to be specific to the combination of the two amino acids; neither of the amino acids demonstrated appreciable stimulating activity when administered alone, even at the same doses.

    Introduction

    It has been known for some time that intravenous administration of amino acids strongly stimulates secretion of growth hormone by the hypothesis. 1,4,13,15,16,18-20. This phenomenon has, in fact, been accepted & utilized as a test of pituitary function in growth disorders. 2,8,9,12,17. However, the physiological relevance of this release of human growth hormone (HGH) has not yet been fully established.

    We have investigated, therefore, the following aspects of this phenomenon: (i) the exact biological nature of the HGH secreted in response to amino acid stimulation, (ii) a possible release of other growth factors in addition to HGH, (iv) whether specific amino acids (l-lysine 7 & l-arginine), either alone or in combination, produce varying HGH responses, (v) the time course of the HGH release, & (vi) whether oral administration of the amino acids is effective.

    Subjects & methods

    Fifteen healthy male volunteers, aged 15 to 20 years, free of all endocrine or metabolic abnormalities & who were not receiving any kind of medical treatment, were kept under observation for 2 days. After initial blood samples had been obtained, each subject received a single oral dose of 2400 mg amino acids (1200mg l-arginine-2-pyrrolidone-5-carboxylate plus 1200 mg l-lysine hydrochloride) on an empty stomach. Blood samples were again drawn at intervals of 30.60, 90 & 120 minutes after amino acid administration. The experiment was repeated after intervals of 10 & 20 days.

    Blood samples were tested for growth hormone by: (a) a radioimmunoassay (RIA) method, & (b) a radioreceptor assay (RRA). This bioassay evaluates somatotrophin on a substrate of lymphocytes in monolayer culture (blastic lymphocytes IM9 infected with Epstein-Barr virus) after extraction & purification by gel-chromatography on a Sephadex column. The biological activity is evaluated in units & extrapolated to ng/ml.

    Somatomedin activity (Somatotomedin A, Asm) was also addressed. To evaluate this HGH-dependant serum factor a biological method was used which determines the incorporation of 35SO4 (the sulphatating activity of the serum) & of 3H-thymidine on piglet rib cartilage. This method, which we modified, 11 is extremely precise (for levels below 0.3) & quite sensitive. Somatomedin activity is expressed in U/ml. One unit indicates the sulphatating activity of 1ml of pooled serum from at least 3 healthy subjects, as no international standard has yet been established for Asm. Normal values using this method are 1+- 0.2 U/ml, with confidence limits of 0.8 and 1.2.Insulin levels were determined by radioimmunoassay.

    In a second experiment, 8 subjects randomly selected from the 15 included in the first experiment underwent growth hormone assays after administration of single doses of various amino acids: (i) 1200 mg l-arginine-2-pyrrolidone-5-carboxylate, (ii) 1200 mg l-lysine hydrochloride, (iii) 1200 mg of both (total 2400 mg), as in the first experiment, and (iv) 2400 l-arginine-2-pyrrolidone-5-carboxylate. Blood samples were drawn at the same times as in the first experiment and assayed only for growth hormone.

    Results

    The results are reported in Table I & figures 1, 2, & 3 & 4 for the experiment & in Table II & figure 5 for the second experiment.

    Table I. Plasma levels of growth hormone (HGH), insulin & somatomedin (Asm) after oral administration of 1200 mg. l-arginine-2-pyrrolidone-5-carboxylate & 1200 mg l-lysine hydrochloride: mean (+- S.D.) values for 15 subjects

    Measurement Growth hormone (ng/ml) RRA: RIA Insulin
    (
     
  8. mmacoach

    mmacoach Guest

    About ornithine



    The Effect Of Ornithine Alpha-Ketoglutarate (Okg) On Healthy, Weight Trained Men

    ROBERT D. CHETLIN, RACHEL A. YEATER, IRMA H. ULLRICH, W. GUYTON HORNSBY, JR.,
     
  9. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I wouldn't be taking the Ornithine for better strength or hormone production, it's usually paired with Arginine to further enhance the production of Nitrous. Alone it doesn't do much, but that's why typically it doesn't get too much play alone.

    And what I meant by having to take a shitload is that of every bottle I've looked at so far the smallest serving size of an Arginine/Ornithine combination is 4 capsules twice daily for 1500mg. That's the same dosage as the NO2 I was using. And there's about a 15-day supply per bottle. It's still much cheaper though so I thought I'd give it a shot.
     
  10. mmacoach

    mmacoach Guest

  11. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Egh, I don't want that. Not at all looking to up GH specifically even though I know that can result from stacking Arginine and Lysine. Plus it doesn't have the Ornithine, which I want.

    I'm going to try the Arginine/Ornithine first and I'll update as to wether or not I think it does anything.
     
  12. mmacoach

    mmacoach Guest

    Huh? You didn't look at the ingredients, it has 2.5 grams or ornithine, for the combo it is cheap.
     
  13. Plum

    Plum Brown Belt

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    I'm going to try this stuff in a few weeks, I'm thinking of getting white blood. Anybody have experience with that?
     
  14. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Ahh, well then I missed it, but I did look at the igredients. It is cheap, but I don't need all that other crap in it. I'm looking for just Arg/Orn alone.
     
  15. Terumo

    Terumo Orange Belt

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    I wouldn't really recommend arginine/ornithine administration for a healthy, adult athlete. All of the studies conducted showing A/O combos to boost GH, IFG-1, or other anabolic hormones or intermediate secretagogues have been flawed in that they do not take into account the effect of training. Training causes a significant spike in many of these hormone levels, particularly GH. This effect often blunts the effect of any supplement that may show prowess in elevating levels of certain desirable hormones.

    The main problems with O/A studies and most all medical studies that are carried over for sports nutrition problems are as follows:

    (1) The study is conducted on a non-athlete sample.
    (2) The study is conducted on either an inappropriate aged or unhealthy sample.
    (3) The study is either cross-species, not double-blinded, or not effectivelt placebo controlled.

    Unfortunately, A/O has not proven to make a tremendous amount of real-world impact.
     
  16. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    If the studies are flawed than the only real way to tell is to take it yourself and figure out wether you like it or not. So, that being said, studies, no studies = irrelevant. The product is out there, you can try it, decipher for yourself wether you feel it's worth it or not, and either take it or disregard. Otherwise your opinion will always be a derivitive of third-party biased information either way you look at it.
     
  17. Terumo

    Terumo Orange Belt

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    Very true, particularly the last sentence. However, without clinical trials, everything would be a matter of trying things for oneself. I, for one, do not want to take this approach. I would rather spend my money on products that have a legitimate amount of scientific grounding behind them. Aside from that, there are just way, way too many confounding variables that exist in randomly test-driving supplements. How do I know if the supplement I was using was effective? Maybe I was under less stress at the time, so my gains were better. Maybe I was getting more/better sleep.

    To me, people are way to quick to praise or condemn a supplement. Example: "Whey protein doesn't work!" Of course it works--it's just food! If a person is failing to gain size while using whey protein and consuming 1200 kCal/day, they generally just dismiss the supplement as being ineffective. Of course, Kabuki, I'm sure you recognize and understand this. However, many, many people do not. This is the sole reason why I find word-of-mouth and personal assessment to be very crude indicators of a product's value.
     
  18. BoxingFanNoMore

    BoxingFanNoMore Blue Belt

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    Good Post Terumo, Thats often the case in a lot of supplement studies. The study is sponsered by the Manufacturer, never submitted for peer review, and in a lot of cases completely unscientific, and the participants are completely unrepresentative of the targeted consumer.

    Its like proving condoms are effective by having a study involving men with Vasectomies. Then saying 100% effective in Men studies shown.

    Most Studies on Supplements are about as scientific as the documentary SuperSize Me. They make great marketing tools, but little else. And if there not even published in an actual independent publication, there pretty much just eye candy.

    There are some good ones, done that are actually performed on real athletes, double blind, and the whole deal. But they are few and far between.
     
  19. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Good posts guys, you both covered essentially what I was getting at, just in a bit more detail. I just cannot stand the kind of nonsensical intant-genuises studies produce, you know what I mean? Guys who think because they read something, they know something...without having done any actual trial-runs or speaking directly with anyone who has themselves. It's one thing to want scientific credibility behind your supplements, nothing wrong with that...but it's a whole other thing to supplement your own intelligence with someone else's. lol
     
  20. Judo-kid

    Judo-kid Green Belt

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    I'm about make my next order and decided get some white blood....

    anyone else try that?
     

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