Are US elite wrestlers overrated?

Not to mention Knees in the clinch present a very different dynamic to wrestlers present in mma and not in traditional wrestling haha
 
Steve08 said:
He got a national championship, that's high level even if the letters "NJCAA" hurt your feelings.

And yeah, he outwrestled him by catching a kick then waiting until he was gassed. Such an achievement! :rolleyes:
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NJCAA doesn't hurt my feelings. It's just not an elite level. Joshua aveles had a national title, is he an elite mma fighter, or does kotc hurt your feelings.

And do you think wrestling is only about takedowns? Jones out wrestled Cormier through 5 rounds. That isn't really debatable.
 
USA Wrestling is very good in the world stage. Pure Wrestling and Wrestling for MMA is very different. MMA is a very different animal. Every Martial Art or Combat Sport has to be adapted for MMA. When you are tired or hurt, you can't defend squat no matter how good you are at it.
 
ContinueZero said:
Not to mention Knees in the clinch present a very different dynamic to wrestlers present in mma and not in traditional wrestling haha
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bullshit. we have to pretend that MMA is not a completely different sport from wrestling, with many grappling-specific situations that do not exist in wrestling.
SODACKER said:
NJCAA doesn't hurt my feelings. It's just not an elite level. Joshua aveles had a national title, is he an elite mma fighter, or does kotc hurt your feelings.

And do you think wrestling is only about takedowns? Jones out wrestled Cormier through 5 rounds. That isn't really debatable.
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Saying it's not an elite level presupposes that good wrestlers only wrestle for division I schools, which is false. If you're competing in a national tournament then you can definitely said to be an elite college wrestler. But elite Division One wrestler, okay that's different. However, I'm fairly confident that Jones would have got at least a top 8 placing in the NCAAs had he continued with his wrestling career. That has to do with talent, not the school he wrestled for.

And my point is that Cormier stuffed Jones takedowns too. Neither of them got anything going in the clinch besides striking. When Jones did take Cormier down, DC was either gassed, or was caught out in a situation that doesn't exist in wrestling (i.e. having your kick caught).
U.S. Soldier said:
USA Wrestling is very good in the world stage. Pure Wrestling and Wrestling for MMA is very different. MMA is a very different animal. Every Martial Art or Combat Sport has to be adapted for MMA. When you are tired or hurt, you can't defend squat no matter how good you are at it.
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What? That's preposterous. You mean to tell me that you cant just carry over your whole style from a completely different sport with different rules????

:eek:
 
Bogeyman said:
He has good wrestling but he's not basing his whole game around it. He wrestled with Cormier because it's the only thing Cormier can do. Jones is good everywhere.
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I didn't say that.
 
Cormier was ten years removed from the time period that dubbed him an 'Olympic Wrestler'.

Jon was far too lengthy and had far too much leverage to allow Daniel any chances to get anything done takedowns-wise.

Jon's sprawl is enormous, DC would be deep in on a single and Jon's rear leg would still be two arm lengths away.
 
Jon is good wrestler, he was recruited by Cael Sanderson to go to IOWA State before going in to mma. Daniel was a great wrestler at the senior level, his wrestling pedigree is at a much higher level than Jones's even though he's not as good as he used to be. However, Jon is a good enough wrestler to take down a guy like DC when he is exhausted. If you have wrestled at a high level, you have seen world champions and even olympians get taken down and scored on by guy's who's not that good.
 
If two guys are both A level wrestlers or an A+ is fighting a B+ it isn't like they can just take the guy down whenever they feel like it and hold him there for 15 minutes. If you watch actual wrestling the difference between a winner and loser is often from small differences which would be inconsequential over the course of an MMA match.
 
Yes just like those BJJ Black Belts getting subbed in MMA by guys that don't do much gi-stuff. Completely overrated.

/sarcasm
 
BrazilianDude said:
They are good. It's the myth of the NCAA guy who can't be taken down that is wrong. Yoel Romero got taken down a bunch of times and he is a higher caliber wrestler than anyone else in the UFC.
MMA is a very complex sport. There are a lot of things to worry about at the same time.
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I agree with my countryman here.
I think americans are pretty damn good in wrestling. Ever heard of Burroughs, dude is a freak. Anyway, pure wrestling and mma wrestling are complete different sports. How many BJJ freaks didn't adapt to mma? A ton. Doing what ur best at being punched in the face is another ball game. When it comes to eastern europeans, where are all the champions and top contenders? Inb4 loads of excuses.
 
Or MMA is a complex game where even the best in a particular discipline can be outdone under the right circumstances. Really I think this is a thinly disguised anti-American thread. Somehow people can cut Yoel Romero slack but not anyone who is from or who represented America.
 
When will people realize that the athlete is more important than the style.

The reason wrestling produces so many good fighters is because it has a large amount of talent in the sport that gets filtered from youth to high school to college to the senior level.

If Jones had stuck to wrestling no one knows how good he could have been. If GSP had wrestled we don't know how good he could have been.
 
Fedor outgrappled a two-time NCAA div 1 champion and an olympic silver medalist wrestler. That's better than Sonnen and DC.
 
PolishHeadlock said:
When will people realize that the athlete is more important than the style.

The reason wrestling produces so many good fighters is because it has a large amount of talent in the sport that gets filtered from youth to high school to college to the senior level.

If Jones had stuck to wrestling no one knows how good he could have been. If GSP had wrestled we don't know how good he could have been.
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Besides thinking wrestling is awesome I've never done it because there's nearly no wrestling in Brazil but I think what Sonnen said makes a lot of sense since that could be applied to other martial arts/ combat sports. He said GSP wasn't a wrestler, he mastered and perfected the double leg. So, without the striking threat I'm not sure if he'd go as far in wrestling.
 
Great wraslin' can be canceled out by good wraslin' in a mma fight, where other skills are involved. SO can ADCC grappling and K-1 striking.
 
Ifighter said:
Besides thinking wrestling is awesome I've never done it because there's nearly no wrestling in Brazil but I think what Sonnen said makes a lot of sense since that could be applied to other martial arts/ combat sports. He said GSP wasn't a wrestler, he mastered and perfected the double leg. So, without the striking threat I'm not sure if he'd go as far in wrestling.
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GSP is a great athlete. I think there's a good chance he would have had success in wrestling if he competed in the sport in high school and college.
 
LiveFreeorDie said:
Great wraslin' can be canceled out by good wraslin' in a mma fight, where other skills are involved. SO can ADCC grappling and K-1 striking.
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You're not going to see ADCC champions being swept let alone submitted by MMA tough men.
 
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