Are there styles of wrestling that translate better to striking?

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by CELS, May 25, 2014.

  1. CELS

    CELS Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,361
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Norway
    Started thinking about this after watching TJ Dillashaw and thinking about all the good freestyle wrestlers that turned out to be great, explosive strikers.

    It's been said that certain styles of wrestling work better for wrestling in MMA. Some high level wrestlers never successfully make the transition to MMA, because their style doesn't work in MMA.

    Interestingly, GSP has credited his karate for his great wrestling, particularly his double legs takedowns. This never made much sense to me, before I started to really work hard on double legs myself, coming from a striking background. The timing for diving in for a power double is sometimes similar to the timing when you want to leap in with punches.

    So I'm wondering if we're starting to see the opposite of what GSP was talking about: wrestlers with a certain style who are able to apply their timing and footwork to become great strikers. I'm sure greco-roman vs freestyle has something to do with it, but it may also be more complex than that. It's also possible that my hypothesis is complete and utter horseshit, since I don't really know much about wrestling, nor what kind of style of wrestling the different UFC fighters had before they started striking.

    Thoughts?

    TL;DR: Do UFC wrestler-boxers with great footwork come from a similar style of wrestling, or did they just become good strikers because they are great athletes and work hard?
     
  2. EndlessCritic

    EndlessCritic Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2013
    Messages:
    22,249
    Likes Received:
    17,348
    I think the 'sticky' type wrestlers like shields and askren have proven to be weaker strikers than the 'explosive' wrestlers like hendricks and koscheck.
     
  3. Harlekin

    Harlekin Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2013
    Messages:
    4,099
    Likes Received:
    4,277
    jones doesn't ^^
     
  4. yookfarb

    yookfarb Red Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    8,017
    Likes Received:
    4,907
    Location:
    DMV
    Greco Roman is probably better than Freestyle.

    Straight up stance
    neutral head position
    lots of clinching
     
  5. tenniswhiz

    tenniswhiz Steel Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    32,999
    Likes Received:
    12,504
    Location:
    Santa Monica
    Having good cardio and speed probably helps a lot. And being explosive helps too.
    They became good because they are great athletes and work hard, like Demetrious Johnson.

    The cool thing is, you can go back and watch the learning curve.
    Watch TJ's or MM's earlier fights, and then watch them now. Very few guys improve that much over a relatively short time.
     
  6. eseseses681

    eseseses681 Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,763
    Likes Received:
    1,022
  7. tenniswhiz

    tenniswhiz Steel Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    32,999
    Likes Received:
    12,504
    Location:
    Santa Monica
    Greco-Roman is a such a huge part of MMA that all fighters spend a lot of time working on it.
    I don't know if the Greco background is as big of an advantage as it used to be, with all the guys being proficient in it now.

    Guys from the freestyle background would also train Greco and clinchwork, and they have some funky freestyle TD's.
    Some of the quicker freestyle guys, like Frankie or MM, are VERY hard to clinch with, let alone lay a finger on.
     
  8. CELS

    CELS Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,361
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Norway
    Yeah, I thought about all the biggest greco names in the UFC. Couture, Sonnen, Hendo, Velasquez, Lindland... they're all fairly stationary strikers. They don't leap in and leap out.

    Now, you could say that Jon Jones is an anomaly in the sense of being an exceptional striker from a greco background. But that's kind of wrong on two levels: first of all, many of those guys are underrated strikers or celebrated strikers. Second of all, I don't know that Jon Jones' style of striking is similar to what we're seeing from freestyle wrestlers in the UFC. He's actually somewhat stationary, especially in his last few matches. Yeah, he does a few superman punches, but you can't compare his style to, say, Rashad Evans' highly mobile style.

    Cheers, will consider it.
     
  9. lowsingle

    lowsingle Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    Messages:
    10,122
    Likes Received:
    54
    Location:
    Bregan D'aerthe
    people have a lot of styles of wrestling, just like how mike tyson, ali, foreman, rjj and mayweather all have different boxing styles

    most wrestling takes place from here
    [​IMG]

    so a lot of guys arent good at covering a lot of distance, they move their opponent around and set up shots so they only have to shoot from less than a foot away. some guys dont even shoot, they bulldoze their opponent, snap their head down or wait for the opponent to shoot and just counter

    mma wrestlers who come from this style would be dan henderson, phil davis, mark munoz, matt hamill and vmat


    other guys are "outside shooters" who are quick enough that they can shoot from beyond clinching range. this is usually when guys are faster but weaker than their opponents and dont want to get tied up in their opponents powerful grip. if anything, those guys probably translate to striking better because they have to leap from feet away and get there before their opponent can react. they also have to set up their attacks from feints and movement rather than just pushing their opponent into what they want.

    they shoot from say out here
    [​IMG]

    the takedowns look more like gsp, chael sonnen and cain velasquez

    note: it gets a lot more complicated than t his, this difference is as basic as comparing brawling to finesse fighting.

    some guys like myself are outside shooters but prefer to dive on ankles (like my user name, low single) rather than driving through double legs. some guys are fast but clinch so youll shoot and they'll take your back in like .01 seconds. this is just an overview
     
  10. yookfarb

    yookfarb Red Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    8,017
    Likes Received:
    4,907
    Location:
    DMV
    The funky takedowns usually aren't effective in MMA, and I also wouldn't consider Frankie/MM to be freestyle.
     
  11. tenniswhiz

    tenniswhiz Steel Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    32,999
    Likes Received:
    12,504
    Location:
    Santa Monica
    They WERE, but yea, now they are both excellent at everything in MMA and faster than everyone else.

    I think some of the funky TD's are part of the future. Just wait and see.
     
  12. lowsingle

    lowsingle Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    Messages:
    10,122
    Likes Received:
    54
    Location:
    Bregan D'aerthe
    another example, some people hit takedowns like this, where they used their speed to constantly circle behind their opponent so they dont directly go force vs force. a lightweight can takedown a heavyweight with this, because you cant power your way out of it, or even sprawl on them with your weight. conversely a heavyweight wouldnt be fast enough to circle behind a lightweight
    [​IMG]

    someone who does techniques like that would most likely strike differently than someone who ragdolls guys like this
    [​IMG]
     
  13. emperor

    emperor Red Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2006
    Messages:
    9,317
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    DC
    I have no striking experience but I imagine that it's difficult for a right-handed wrestler to either learn to box southpaw or shoot with his left foot forward. So based on that completely naive approach, I'd say Greco lends itself better to striking than freestyle or folkstyle.
     
  14. grecobjj

    grecobjj Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2014
    Messages:
    2,284
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    in a house
    Both have their strong points
    But because free style takedowns are based on speed and explosion (ever see an effective sloow ankle pick/knee tap / double or single leg?) That's gonna prolly translate well to handspeed/ footwork
    Greco takedowns come down to leverage/timing/pure strength more often than not
    ...That being said I'll take greco and the ability to control the clinch/dictate the pace/ and just generally rough a mfker up...over having a base that leaves you open to well timed strikes anytime you use it(more than a few examples of knees catching dudes shooting double legs....can't say the same about a hip toss or head throw)
     
  15. Ryan Phillipe

    Ryan Phillipe Blue Belt

    Joined:
    May 7, 2014
    Messages:
    922
    Likes Received:
    5
    A lot of people are making it like freestyle and folkstyle wrestlers don't know how to clinch, it's a big part of their game also. As far as Greco vs freestyle or folkstyle, these styles tend to produce much better athletes than Greco, a lot of guys go into Greco because they can't compete with higher levels of freestyle wrestlers. Hendo was a two time Olympian in Greco but would be remotely competitive with even lower level international freestyle wrestlers and he wasn't particularly good in folkstyle.
     
  16. U.S. Soldier

    U.S. Soldier Red Belt

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Messages:
    8,007
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Riverside CA. USA
    This is a very good. The wrestling style does matter on what kind of striker you will be.

    Personally, i like the single and use plenty of Judo/Greco Roman for No Gi. I can do doubles from close range but you have to be very explosive, fast and committed to the double leg when you do shoot from the outside
     
  17. NoBiasJustMMA

    NoBiasJustMMA Steel Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2010
    Messages:
    28,937
    Likes Received:
    13,585
    Location:
    Maryland
    Folkstyle wrestlers that have explosive singles and doubles seem to translate to striking better while guys who are better at riding are better at BJJ and/or GnP.
     
  18. ventrue

    ventrue <img src="http://i52.tinypic.com/245zjwo.gif"> Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Messages:
    13,495
    Likes Received:
    2,154
    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    Good thread. Will bookmark.

    I agree w/ lowsingle and NoBiasJustMMA.

    I was a linebacker in college and wrestled. I had a pretty good double. I wa able to pick up striking fairly quickly, but I am still having a hard time w/ BJJ.
     
  19. lowsingle

    lowsingle Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    Messages:
    10,122
    Likes Received:
    54
    Location:
    Bregan D'aerthe
    for what its worth, when i started getting my wrestling partners into MMA, they all said lyoto's striking style reminded them of my wrestling style. where i constantly use footwork and agility to avoid getting tangled in shit. people often complain that im not engaging enough

    then as soon as i feel an opening i just explode trying many takedowns in a row, usually going for quick/low strength techniques or unorthodox techniques that they won't expect. diving on ankles, trying spinning arm drags and if it doesnt work out, i just get the fuck out of there and start over

    like i would shoot a low single, and if they tried to forearm block my shoulder, i would just go for this (skip to 1:45)


    so my striking style ended up looking like somewhere in between lyoto and vitor, just avoiding shit and attacking in big bursts. i think a ton of it has to do with how i wrestled. i just dont feel natural plodding forward or standing still
     
  20. CELS

    CELS Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,361
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Norway
    Well, some of you seem to be misunderstanding my point. You can say "Well, these wrestlers are more explosive, and these wrestlers rely more on balance and core strength" or whatever. But I'm not talking about their physical attributes, their speed or their leaping ability. I think it has to do much more with how you find your distance and timing, how you set up your attacks. If you're accustomed to shooting a double leg from the outside at a certain moment, this may translate well to leaping in with punches from the outside at a certain moment, and vice versa. Similarly, the ability to create angles may be a key factor, as someone has already pointed out.

    It's more about distance, timing and positioning, the mental aspect, I think. How you play the game. I mean, sure, you have to train your muscles to react the way you want them to. You don't develop good footwork over night, you have to train to be nimble on your feet and switch directions quickly. But that part is more easily trained than the wrestling game that comes from 15 years of competition, I think.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.