Are there any libetarians here? I want to join but don't understand what it is.

[Jack V Savage]

I think I want to join but I have no idea what a librarian is. I tried to google it, I can't understand a damn thing about it. Look at this Wikipedia page on libetarianism:

You might try spelling it correctly. I find that that makes the search process a little easier.

But there is a wide range of views that are described as "libertarian." Some good thinkers have fit. Look into Peter Kropotkin, P.J. Proudhon, and Robert Nozick to get a good sense of the range of non-idiot libertarians (most libertarians *are* pretty misguided).

 

[Jack V Savage]

BIggest problem with libertarians is that in the same vein of "let people do whatever they want and get the government out of their lives" it also ends up "let corporations do whatever they want and get government out of regulating mega corps"

Which leads to even more freedom to monopolize and price gouge as well as 0 worker protections. If we magically had a libertarian set of government, it wouldn't just be Amazon and Walmart off the chains to run fight over who gets to run the world. They'd just immediately merge to rule it together.

We wouldn't have big corporations without a strong gov't, though. The kind of "libertarian" who says they hate the gov't but love capitalism just doesn't really know what they're talking about.

 

[HockeyBjj]

We wouldn't have big corporations without a strong gov't, though. The kind of "libertarian" who says they hate the gov't but love capitalism just doesn't really know what they're talking about.

Well I think that’s the libertarian mindset that I don’t buy. The corporations only got too powerful because of the government. If government helped them less, there’d be more smaller and mid sized businesses and greater competition. If government stopped all their subsidies and no bail outs it’d be back to that. That’s the libertarian point of view there.

 

[Teppodama]

 

[Jack V Savage]

Well I think that’s the libertarian mindset that I don’t buy. The corporations only got too powerful because of the government. If government helped them less, there’d be more smaller and mid sized businesses and greater competition. If government stopped all their subsidies and no bail outs it’d be back to that. That’s the libertarian point of view there.

It's not even that, though. There's no private property without a strong gov't, and no intellectual property. Some of them imagine there would be private security forces to establish that kind of thing, but even if you buy that the security forces wouldn't just take over, Amazon with their own army is just another form of gov't.

 

[ineverpost]

Libertarian is a make believe political party that has 0 members in government. It's a political larp fest.

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

Man the libertarian rhetoric around here reminds me a lot of of the decline of atheism in popular discourse.

Once it's out of the limelight the only commentators left are those who got way into it or those who only remember hating it for some reason or other.

 

[Denter]

We wouldn't have big corporations without a strong gov't, though. The kind of "libertarian" who says they hate the gov't but love capitalism just doesn't really know what they're talking about.

"I love feudalism" basically.

But I'd say there are basically no non-dumb libertarians. No anarchist theorist, even Prodhoun, ever made much sense.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Mean the libertarian rhetoric around here reminds me a lot of of the decline of atheism in popular discourse.

Once it's out of the limelight the only commentators left are those who got way into it or those who only remember hating it for some reason or other.

It was never really popular among the population, but among the kind of people who are drawn to Internet message boards, especially in the early days, it was huge. I think those people have moved on to either hard-core social-justice stuff or reaction, depending. And then later adopters have been less serious and dumber but have basically followed one of those two paths.

 

[Jack V Savage]

"I love feudalism" basically.

But I'd say there are basically no non-dumb libertarians. No anarchist theorist, even Prodhoun, ever made much sense.

Mildly disagree with the second part of this, though I'd say we've made some progress. That is, I don't penalize people writing a long time ago for not knowing what we know now or for not anticipating all the arguments and counterarguments that follow them. It is much harder these days to be a non-stupid, well-informed person who is intellectually satisfied with libertarianism than it was in even as late as the 1970s.

 

[Denter]

Mildly disagree with the second part of this, though I'd say we've made some progress. That is, I don't penalize people writing a long time ago for not knowing what we know now or for not anticipating all the arguments and counterarguments that follow them. It is much harder these days to be a non-stupid, well-informed person who is intellectually satisfied with libertarianism than it was in even as late as the 1970s.

I'd say the same thing about social-contract theory and people who idealize the "state of nature" like Rousseau did. We now know just how violent hunter-gatherer society is (20% of men die by violence), and how tyrannical it was (most men did not pass on their genes). It was a decent hypothesis in the 18th century, but we simply know too much now. Heck, we now know quite a lot about pre-contact Australian aboriginal life, and have testimonies of white men who were marooned or otherwise lived with those people, and to call it violent is an understatement. I think anyone now who doesn't reckon with Hobbes is doomed to fantasy; life without the state is irrefutably nasty, brutal, vicious and short.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I'd say the same thing about social-contract theory and people who idealize the "state of nature" like Rousseau did. We now know just how violent hunter-gatherer society is (20% of men die by violence), and how tyrannical it was (most men did not pass on their genes). It was a decent hypothesis in the 18th century, but we simply know too much now. Heck, we now know quite a lot about pre-contact Australian aboriginal life, and have testimonies of white men who were marooned or otherwise lived with those people, and to call it violent is an understatement. I think anyone now who doesn't reckon with Hobbes is doomed to fantasy; life without the state is irrefutably nasty, brutal, vicious and short.

A little oversimplified, but it's a short post rather than a book. So yeah, I think this is pretty much right. Even the low-end HG death-by-violence rate (in more-stable situations) would be very unacceptable today.

 

[mmafan2000]

Open them borders and tear down that wall.

Why would any normal, tax paying citizen want that??

 

[Whippy McGee]

We wouldn't have big corporations without a strong gov't, though. The kind of "libertarian" who says they hate the gov't but love capitalism just doesn't really know what they're talking about.

^^^ Any person making this statement (1) doesn't understand Capitalism, and (2) doesn't understand Libertarian-ism, or is dishonest to the bone. This is a statement of someone that received and is now sharing indoctrination, not education.

For everyone else, because the above poster is far too dense to understand or accept that there are the real nuances for both Capitalism and Libertarians I will offer....

Libertarians like Conservatives, Liberals, come in different degrees. I do not agree with unbridled Capitalism as Monopolies happen and should be dealt with. I also don't agree with the Open Border concept of Libertarians (big L), as sovereignty matters. Capitalism and Crony Capitalism are far different. What America has is the latter. Many, like the poster above either refuse to acknowledge the difference, or don't understand it. Crony Capitalism is when the Government gets involved and picks the winners and losers through laws, orders, and regulations. That is not Capitalism, that is the elite of Government and Business conspiring against, "We the People".

We should have let the Big Banks fail in 2008 for example. There were many regional banks that did not fall for the bundling of mortgages. They kept sound economic practices as their modus operandi and they did well. They should have been allowed to take the places of the failed big banks that didn't follow sound practices, but the government intervened. Libertarians were not for that intervention. Free Market Capitalists were not for that intervention. Crony Capitalists were 100% for it. The elite prevailed.

The Libertarian Party, like the Republican Party, and Democratic Party has some serious flaws, but it also has some very attractive values like Limited Government. Capitalism when taken over by the Government becomes Crony Capitalism and is a bane on the nation for the benefit of the elite.

I hope that helps those that want an honest take and not some bullshit elitist crap.

 

[ElijahWood]

I think I want to join but I have no idea what a librarian is. I tried to google it, I can't understand a damn thing about it. Look at this Wikipedia page on libetarianism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

I can't make heads or tails of it, but I really like some core ideals like small government and let people do what they want as long as they leave others alone. Am I right?

Is any one a libertarian here? Can you explain it to me, I want to join. I don't like the Democrats or Republicans. I really want to give libertarian a shot but I have no idea what I'm getting into. I tell people I am libertarian, then they ask me what do they believe, then I quickly change the subject because i have no idea what the hell I am talking about. lol

Dave Smith has a podcast called Part of the Problem where he breaks down libertarianism pretty well.

Not perfectly, but pretty well.

 

[Denter]

Why would any normal, tax paying citizen want that??

Sounds like someone didn't pay their Private PMC their compound security fee this month, sorry about the marauders.

 

[Yehudim]

It's not even that, though. There's no private property without a strong gov't, and no intellectual property. Some of them imagine there would be private security forces to establish that kind of thing, but even if you buy that the security forces wouldn't just take over, Amazon with their own army is just another form of gov't.

This is what a certain strand of libertarians believe but they’re better labeled as anarcho-capitalists.

 

[Denter]

^^^ Any person making this statement (1) doesn't understand Capitalism, and (2) doesn't understand Libertarian-ism, or is dishonest to the bone. This is a statement of someone that received and is now sharing indoctrination, not education.

For everyone else, because the above poster is far too dense to understand or accept that there are the real nuances for both Capitalism and Libertarians I will offer....

Libertarians like Conservatives, Liberals, come in different degrees. I do not agree with unbridled Capitalism as Monopolies happen and should be dealt with. I also don't agree with the Open Border concept of Libertarians (big L), as sovereignty matters. Capitalism and Crony Capitalism are far different. What America has is the latter. Many, like the poster above either refuse to acknowledge the difference, or don't understand it. Crony Capitalism is when the Government gets involved and picks the winners and losers through laws, orders, and regulations. That is not Capitalism, that is the elite of Government and Business conspiring against, "We the People".

We should have let the Big Banks fail in 2008 for example. There were many regional banks that did not fall for the bundling of mortgages. They kept sound economic practices as their modus operandi and they did well. They should have been allowed to take the places of the failed big banks that didn't follow sound practices, but the government intervened. Libertarians were not for that intervention. Free Market Capitalists were not for that intervention. Crony Capitalists were 100% for it. The elite prevailed.

The Libertarian Party, like the Republican Party, and Democratic Party has some serious flaws, but it also has some very attractive values like Limited Government. Capitalism when taken over by the Government becomes Crony Capitalism and is a bane on the nation for the benefit of the elite.

I hope that helps those that want an honest take and not some bullshit elitist crap.

What Jack is stating is fundamentally true though; corporations only happen through limiting liability and granting entity status to corporations through law, which is enforced by state violence. Without strong law enforcement, courts that are listened to and property rights, you cannot have large corporations because what a person or group of people can physically control is pretty limited, to say nothing of intellectual property.

 

[Stop Being Greedy]

There was a good David Simon talk I watched once where he said libertarianism is human selfishness wrapped up and made into a political ideology. I think that's about right.

 

[Yehudim]

What Jack is stating is fundamentally true though; corporations only happen through limiting liability and granting entity status to corporations through law, which is enforced by state violence. Without strong law enforcement, courts that are listened to and property rights, you cannot have large corporations because what a person or group of people can physically control is pretty limited, to say nothing of intellectual property.

Maybe a libertarian is more qualified to speak, but it looks like you think that small government = weak government

Aside from some Murray Rothbard crackpot who advocates anarchy, it’s obvious that you need a strong government to enforce contracts and laws.

Who are these people that advocate from weak government? Small does not equal weak.