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Are takedowns too overvalued in scoring and takedown defense under?

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by Biggamer86, Feb 11, 2020.

  1. Biggamer86 Green Belt

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    Curious what other people think about this, I feel like takedowns are totally overvalued personally speaking. Especially takedowns where the fighter gets them to the ground and they bounce right back up, or a takedown where they get them down with 10 seconds left but inflict 0 damage. Also if a takedown scores so much, why do fighters not get points for defending the takedowns, or at least it doesn't seem like they do. Heck I've seen fights wher someone goes for numerous takedowns and doesn't get any but yet it seems like they win the fight off the takedown attempts since they push the other fighter to the cage etc even when the defender manages to push off etc it seems like the takedown attempt scores more points than the defense.
     
  2. updowniri Green Belt

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    You don't get points for defense. The reward for defending is that you were not hit or taken down. It stops your opponents from getting points but you don't get points for it yourself. Even if it looks cool.
     
  3. Doctor Lenovo Banned Banned

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    TD's are overvalued by judges, but not by the rules. This is what the rules have to say about TD's: "It shall be noted that a successful takedown is not merely a changing of position, but the establishment of an attack from the use of the takedown."

    However, in a close fight, I won't blame the judges for using any kind of takedown as a deciding factor. Robert Whitaker won his first fight against Yoel Romero because Romero slipped and Whitaker landed on top of him.

    At this point everybody knows about the importance of TDs. When a great striker comes to the UFC, one of our very first questions is "how is its TD defense?" LOL

    So, for the fans to backpedal about TDs because the fighter they wanted to win lost, possibly because of TDs, is just intellectually dishonest.
     
  4. Wizzlebiz Wizzlebiz is the Wizziest

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    If your constantly defending a takedown you aren't putting up any offense.

    Now if a take down is attempted and denied then punished there is a clear turn of who is winning.

    Without the punishment the takedown is the only offense given. Round goes to the aggressor.
     
  5. Cat Biscuits Black Belt

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    It always has been extremely overrated.

    What matters is what you do with the takedown since you have an advantageous position.

    I wish they'd stop "scoring" takedowns altogether since so many people act like a takedown at the end of a round is worth the same as hurting someone and almost finishing them...
     
  6. Nandez Blue Belt

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    I think what happens immediately after a take down should be taken into consideration.

    If the other fighter gets up right away or if no damage is inflicted than it should not count as much as a take down that evolves into ground and pound.
     
  7. Orochimaru 大蛇丸 Silver Belt Platinum Member

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    It's very case by case, but takedowns should definitely be highly valued, ESPECIALLY if the other guy is on their back at the end of the round
     
  8. Orochimaru 大蛇丸 Silver Belt Platinum Member

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    Nobody scores it that highly, you think takedowns shouldn't be scored on any level??
     
  9. Krimzon Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card

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    Takedowns are a way for guys to avoid fighting - Michael Bisping.

    It's definitely true for certain fighters, the instant they get rocked -> emergency level change. Plus you get points for control. It's just win win to attempt a TD overall.
     
  10. Doctor Lenovo Banned Banned

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    You shouldn't get points for blocking a strike. However, stopping a TD is a huge part of "effective grappling." When you are defending a TD, you are essentially grappling, and if you successfully defend that TD, that means you are the most effective grappler.

    I also believe scoring TDDs will prevent fighters from spamming TDs. A lot of TD attempts are not offensive. Fighters end up in a clinch in a neutral position were neither fighter is advancing. Plus, the referees are often to slow to break up these positions.

    TDD should be scored as "effective grappling."
     
  11. Donnie Clones BIG MAC CHAMP CHAMP

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    But they are worth two points
     
  12. Cat Biscuits Black Belt

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    If there is absolutely zero action during the entire round, sure. But that never happens.

    They are overvalued and used as a tool to "secure" (aka steal) a round that is close.

    But the stupid thing about takedowns is that not every one provides the same results for a fighter.

    A takedown for Khabib is huge because it allows him to get into an advantageous position to damage his opponent. He's able to neutralize his opponent and damage him at the same time. He is extremely effective in that position.

    A takedown for someone else who is simply going to lay in another man's guard and do no damage should not be valued the same way. He's able to neutralize his opponent, but might not get any damage done. He might even be taking damage while on top.

    Anderson Silva has been better the better fighter by not being the aggressor, instead moving backwards. Wanderlei Silva is better at being the aggressor and moving forward. Lyoto Machida has been better by not being the aggressor and instead countering his aggressive opponents.

    So are you going to tell me that because they're not "in control" of the center of the cage that they're less effective? Because they're not moving forward or being aggressive that they're not as good?

    A takedown isn't damaging (and i'm not comparing it to a slam). A takedown simply gives you a better position in order to be offensive. If you don't do anything with it, can you really argue that it should be scored at all?

    What if the guy on the bottom is landing more shots and damaging the guy on top, all while the guy on top is only holding his opponent down? What if the takedown results in a stalemate? If so, can you really say the guy on top is doing all the much better than the guy on bottom?

    It all comes down to the effectiveness of the fighter who gets the takedown and does something with it. And effectiveness should be measured by damage done, not by how much you control your opponent or how many takedowns you get a round.

    Stop scoring takedowns and start scoring damage. You'll see that it's much easier to score a round when you're not factoring in takedowns that result in nothing, or looking at the stupid fucking stats that shows "octagon control" or "time spent moving forward".

    That criteria needs to be removed and made simple for judges who are obviously confused at how to score a fight because they have to factor in takedowns and aggression like they're all worth something. And then they have to give a value of how much it was worth, and think if a takedown is worth as much as 2, 3, or maybe 4 punches? How much is 60% aggression worth? Is it worth 3 punches or 8 punches? Who the fuck knows. It's complicated to factor it in, and needs to be removed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020

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