Are people too quick to accept "science"?

Again they have not been refuted instead pseduo-intellectuals come in here and repeat the stuff you have been conditioned to say. And when they disagree with it they scream racism just as you have been conditioned.

Actually read a Troublesome Inheritance (I have) and it changed my entire outlook.

You sure that they just call him racist and havent attacked the book? YOu might want to try looking harder. Might even guess that you read that somewhere and believed it without critical thinking.

As scientists dedicated to studying genetic variation, we thank David Dobbs for his review of Nicholas Wade’s “A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History” (July 13), and for his description of Wade’s misappropriation of research from our field to support arguments about differences among human societies.

As discussed by Dobbs and many others, Wade juxtaposes an incomplete and inaccurate account of our research on human genetic differences with speculation that recent natural selection has led to worldwide differences in I.Q. test results, political institutions and economic development. We reject Wade’s implication that our findings substantiate his guesswork. They do not.

We are in full agreement that there is no support from the field of population genetics for Wade’s conjectures.

GRAHAM COOP
DAVIS, CALIF.

The writer is a professor of evolution and ecology at the University of California, Davis.

MICHAEL B. EISEN
BERKELEY, CALIF.

The writer is a professor of molecular and cell biology at the University of California, Berkeley, and investigator, Howard Hughes Medical Institute.

RASMUS NIELSEN
BERKELEY, CALIF.

The writer is a professor of computational biology at the University of California, Berkeley.

MOLLY PRZEWORSKI
NEW YORK

The writer is a professor of biology at Columbia University.

NOAH ROSENBERG
STANFORD, CALIF.

The writer is a professor of biology at Stanford University.

This letter was submitted on behalf of more than 100 faculty members in population genetics and evolutionary biology; their names and affiliations are available at cehg.stanford.edu/letter-from-population-geneticists/.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/10/books/review/letters-a-troublesome-inheritance.html?_r=2
 
There is a nuance here that I'm failing to get across. I'm not trying to compare the two explanations and judge which is better. I'm saying that neither of them are really being critical. I think one of them is being practical, seeing as how mechanics have a better track record than prayer, but he is still uncritically accepting the mechanics diagnosis. I'm not saying it is wrong to do, or that it isn't rational...I'm saying it is uncritical. My issue is that people accept science, and believe themselves to be critical thinkers and superior because of it.

I will accept the mechanics diagnosis. I won't believe myself to be superior to those who don't, or think that I am a critical thinker for doing though. I recognize that I am ignorant of cars, and I'm accepting his diagnosis only as an issue of practicality.

But you don't need to understand cars to accept the mechanic's diagnosis. It's still rational to accept it if the goal is to have a fixed car as mechanics have a long track record of properly fixing cars. You are making a superior judgment to someone who says 'I don't understand cars therefore I reject the judgment of the mechanic' as your car will be fixed and his won't. You could say that's just practicality, but given that the aim of going to a mechanic (and largely of doing science) is a practical one that's the proper metric to use in making a judgment.
 
While you're right that it's silly to criticize people simply for having questions about some piece of scientific thought, I think you have to look at where the criticism is coming from. If you say 'I don't believe in the big bang theory because there are some significant divergence between prediction and observation' I don't know that many people would have a problem with it. If you say 'I don't believe in the big bang theory because god created the world in 6 days' you will rightly be ridiculed for being unscientific in your assessment of the theory. Why you don't buy the theory is important. If the reason is religion that's your business, but it has nothing to do with science and what I and I think a lot of people get tired of is religious people finding holes in science not as a means of critical inquiry but rather purely because they think it strengthens their religious viewpoint. However, they are always totally unwilling to apply any of the same rigor to their beliefs. Now I don't expect the moral or spiritual parts of religious doctrine to pass muster in some scientific sense; that's silly, as those are not scientific areas of inquiry for the most part. However, in those domains in which religion makes scientific claims (e.g. about the origin of the natural world) then if you're going to accept it you either need to apply the same rigor to examining those beliefs you'd apply to any other area of science or you just need to admit that your beliefs are wholly unscientific and based in faith that lies totally outside of science.

So yes, if your skepticism of evolution or the big bang or whatever is rooted in critical analysis great. If it's just cover for protecting yourself from cognitive dissonance regarding portions of your religious doctrine, you deserve whatever ridicule you receive (at least, you do if you try to attack those theories on scientific grounds while not apply those same standards to your competing theories).

Why are shifting from "Why people believe the things they do" to "Why people don't believe the things they do".


I'm talking about the guy who asserts that he is superior for believing in the Big Bang over people who reject it. You can't tell me haven't seen people on here assert that people who don't think the Universe expanded from a singularity are dumb. We are so focused on why other don't believe it, why aren't we focused on why these people do believe it. What makes these people so sure that the there was a Big Bang? In most cases, it is simply because they were told that it did. Thats not critical thinking, yet they perceive themselves as being critical thinkers because they hold this belief.
 
Only a very tiny percentage of the population is interested in science according to collected data in high schools and colleges. It is a rare gift to delve into the depths of problem solving and thus being able to solve realities problems. Most however like fictional data due to many incorrect processes which enslave the mind. Thus why should most study and work to find a solution rather a solution will just present itself by praising idols at a ceremony or at home for countless hours. The good and bad is most people that study science are sometimes gullible to the fact devious minds keep a close eye thus when something ground breaking pops up it could be used maliciously as usual. Great minds be careful your great intent will be converted to bad use with the current system of how things are run in the world. Save your best when education is the primary goal not business and fame.
 
True scientific discovery can be a good thing. The problem is when lies get mixed in with facts.

Which is why you should not listen to obscure pseudo-scientists just because they support Creationist views.
 
Why are shifting from "Why people believe the things they do" to "Why people don't believe the things they do".


I'm talking about the guy who asserts that he is superior for believing in the Big Bang over people who reject it. You can't tell me haven't seen people on here assert that people who don't think the Universe expanded from a singularity are dumb. We are so focused on why other don't believe it, why aren't we focused on why these people do believe it. What makes these people so sure that the there was a Big Bang? In most cases, it is simply because they were told that it did. Thats not critical thinking, yet they perceive themselves as being critical thinkers because they hold this belief.

I would add that in some cases, people believe in something because it fits their agenda, or conversely, it doesn't fit the agenda of their opponent. They don't care about the consensus, they only hide behind it.

Also, there are few things where the consensus are 100%, and it doesn't mean that experts in their respected fields that disagree with the consensus are not rational or intelligent, especially compared to a layman who just wants to win an internet debate.
 
Why are shifting from "Why people believe the things they do" to "Why people don't believe the things they do".


I'm talking about the guy who asserts that he is superior for believing in the Big Bang over people who reject it. You can't tell me haven't seen people on here assert that people who don't think the Universe expanded from a singularity are dumb. We are so focused on why other don't believe it, why aren't we focused on why these people do believe it. What makes these people so sure that the there was a Big Bang? In most cases, it is simply because they were told that it did. Thats not critical thinking, yet they perceive themselves as being critical thinkers because they hold this belief.

So is your issue just with the superiorty attitudes that some people have? Do you believe that it's rational for laymen to believe the scientific consensus?
 
But you don't need to understand cars to accept the mechanic's diagnosis. It's still rational to accept it if the goal is to have a fixed car as mechanics have a long track record of properly fixing cars. You are making a superior judgment to someone who says 'I don't understand cars therefore I reject the judgment of the mechanic' as your car will be fixed and his won't. You could say that's just practicality, but given that the aim of going to a mechanic (and largely of doing science) is a practical one that's the proper metric to use in making a judgment.

I think that is feeling superior with the outcome, and is ok.

If you vaccinate your kids, and your neighbor doesn't, and his get sick and die, you can feel superior. You were right and he was wrong, the outcome proved it.

What will happen if/when the scientific consensus changes away from the Big Bang? Will all these people who spent years defending it apologize?
 
You are a sheep because you vehemently defend something you were told, without knowing any of the reasons behind it. You certainly aren't a critical thinker, I can tell you that. You clearly have no intention of critically evaluating your beliefs.

Im not a critical thinker because i dont immediatly assume that all outlandish claims are true?

Negative beliefs dont exist, im not saying he is wrong, im saying that he doesnt brings a valid argument to prove his claims are true and that he was called on it.

Go back to the flat earth thread we had yesterday. When I read the OP, I didn't immediately think "wow ur a retard i know someone who said ur wrong so ur wrong". My brain immediately started questioning how I could prove him wrong. He mentioned water flying off a spinning tennis ball and not off the spinning earth. I whipped out the calculator and calculated the forces on water attached to a tennis ball, and water attached to the earth.

If a tennis ball spinned at 1 revolution per day, it wouldnt spin out water either, you dont need a calculator to know that.

I don't want to sound harsh, but you'd never make it a scientist. You don't have the mindset for it.

I used to be a scientist, i studied that, i published one paper before leaving school and sorry to sound harsh but you would never make it as an ecologist, your inability to separate the chaff from the weath and your need to have every single variable under control would had made you unable to set up a proper experiment on field.:wink:
 
Why are shifting from "Why people believe the things they do" to "Why people don't believe the things they do".

I'm talking about the guy who asserts that he is superior for believing in the Big Bang over people who reject it. You can't tell me haven't seen people on here assert that people who don't think the Universe expanded from a singularity are dumb. We are so focused on why other don't believe it, why aren't we focused on why these people do believe it. What makes these people so sure that the there was a Big Bang? In most cases, it is simply because they were told that it did. Thats not critical thinking, yet they perceive themselves as being critical thinkers because they hold this belief.

Is it not more critical to believe an explanation that is (approaching) a consensus among professional scientists instead of an alternative that isn't?

Even if you believed in the Big Bang purely as the result of a heuristic you'd still be more right in your conclusion than a believer who says otherwise because of the Bible (for example). That's probably the case for a lot of politically salient scientific beliefs.
 
Why are shifting from "Why people believe the things they do" to "Why people don't believe the things they do".


I'm talking about the guy who asserts that he is superior for believing in the Big Bang over people who reject it. You can't tell me haven't seen people on here assert that people who don't think the Universe expanded from a singularity are dumb. We are so focused on why other don't believe it, why aren't we focused on why these people do believe it. What makes these people so sure that the there was a Big Bang? In most cases, it is simply because they were told that it did. Thats not critical thinking, yet they perceive themselves as being critical thinkers because they hold this belief.

Again, if you're talking about who is the better group of critical thinkers, then motivation matters when discussing the nature of disbelief. I do think that a person who generally buys science because they see how effective science is at explaining the natural world is doing a better job of thinking critically than those who reject some aspects of science because it conflicts with their religious belief. Neither are as good of critical thinkers (in that domain at least) as people who actually examine the evidence, but it's not wrong for people to say 'I don't understand cosmology but I do recognize the track record science has in explaining things and so I will accept the conclusions of experts in that field'. They are definitely thinking more critically than those who say 'you have no expertise or are possibly lying because what you say conflicts with my religious beliefs'.

Neither exhibits a high level of critical thinking without a doubt, but the two are not equivalent. And attempts to draw such an equivalency, if that is indeed what you're doing, strikes me as a backhanded equivocation of religiously motivated rejection of science with mere lack of rigorous scientific education.
 
So is your issue just with the superiorty attitudes that some people have? Do you believe that it's rational for laymen to believe the scientific consensus?

I'm not 100% sure I want to attach the word "rational" to it, but I certainly believe it is practical.

But yes, my major concern is the attitude. One of the most dangerous aspects of organized religion is that trains people to accept things they are told at face value, without questions, and to believe them with every ounce of vigor they can muster. It then conditions people that they are superior to others because of these beliefs.

I see a lot of these exact same aspects in new pseudo-intellectual science fads. Take a look at the smug levels on reddits atheism board for example. Thousands of people waxing about how intelligent and critical they are...all while just accepting everything they are told at face value just like the religious.
 
I think that is feeling superior with the outcome, and is ok.

If you vaccinate your kids, and your neighbor doesn't, and his get sick and die, you can feel superior. You were right and he was wrong, the outcome proved it.

What will happen if/when the scientific consensus changes away from the Big Bang? Will all these people who spent years defending it apologize?

Apologize to whom? To you, perhaps they should. To TCK or Ripskater? Absolutely not. Unless of course god comes down from the heavens and provides some tangible evidence of his presence. Not to beat a dead horse, but not considering the motivations for rejection of a theory is important. What's the alternative? Typically you hold and modify scientific theories until a better alternative comes along. If the big bang theory does get scrapped and the new theory is some other cosmological theory that has nothing to do with god, are all the religious people going to apologize, or are they just going to keep saying we're all stupid for not believing Genesis? My money is on the latter.

I get the sense that what you're responding to with this thread is the perceived superiority of atheists to religious people in terms of critical thought. It bothers you that atheists who are not scientists consider themselves superior in rationality to Christians even though both are taking aspects of their belief on faith. What I'm trying to say is that beliefs are motivated by evidence, whether that evidence is empirical or statements made in the bible or from a pulpit. You cannot compare two sets of beliefs for their level of rationality without comparing the evidence which underlies them. In the case of religion, the evidence is utterly non-empirical. In the case of atheists their beliefs are based on the effectiveness of science in doing what it claims (explaining the natural world) which is empirical evidence of a sort. There's no comparable evidence for religion that I know of. So while the non-scientist atheist does not have the highest level of empirical knowledge, he's still got more than the religious person and in that sense is superior in his level of rationality regarding his beliefs.
 
Last edited:
Why are shifting from "Why people believe the things they do" to "Why people don't believe the things they do".


I'm talking about the guy who asserts that he is superior for believing in the Big Bang over people who reject it. You can't tell me haven't seen people on here assert that people who don't think the Universe expanded from a singularity are dumb. We are so focused on why other don't believe it, why aren't we focused on why these people do believe it. What makes these people so sure that the there was a Big Bang? In most cases, it is simply because they were told that it did. Thats not critical thinking, yet they perceive themselves as being critical thinkers because they hold this belief.

The "Why" is why people get mad. I don't get angry if a child thinks babies come from Storks or the moon is made of cheese, or that rainbows are from unicorns...or whatever.

The reason people get angry, is most "why not's" are based on an agenda, and most "why's" follow Occam law.

Evolution, Big Bang, and Anthropomorphic Climate Change, are the most compelling and well evidenced theories to explain their associated phenomena available.

Any dis-belief in any of these theories should be based on equally compelling contradictory evidence. Any dis-belief not supported by compelling arguments can be assumed to be motivated by agenda, or gullibility to a biased party.

No assumption needs to be made towards those that believe the best available explanation.
 
I'm not 100% sure I want to attach the word "rational" to it, but I certainly believe it is practical.

But yes, my major concern is the attitude. One of the most dangerous aspects of organized religion is that trains people to accept things they are told at face value, without questions, and to believe them with every ounce of vigor they can muster. It then conditions people that they are superior to others because of these beliefs.

I see a lot of these exact same aspects in new pseudo-intellectual science fads. Take a look at the smug levels on reddits atheism board for example. Thousands of people waxing about how intelligent and critical they are...all while just accepting everything they are told at face value just like the religious.

That attitude is common throughout humans, no matter where they are from or what they believe. Must be an evolutionary trait ;)
 
I'm not 100% sure I want to attach the word "rational" to it, but I certainly believe it is practical.

But yes, my major concern is the attitude. One of the most dangerous aspects of organized religion is that trains people to accept things they are told at face value, without questions, and to believe them with every ounce of vigor they can muster. It then conditions people that they are superior to others because of these beliefs.

I see a lot of these exact same aspects in new pseudo-intellectual science fads. Take a look at the smug levels on reddits atheism board for example. Thousands of people waxing about how intelligent and critical they are...all while just accepting everything they are told at face value just like the religious.

Are you telling me that if we have to prove a negative otherwise we are smug if we dont believe them?

Like if someone stated there is a pink elephant floating in the universe example? im pretty sure there is a genetic component to IQ, but that component remains still unfound. Therefore the claims by people linking race and IQ are still nothing but guesswork.
 
Evolution, Big Bang, and Anthropomorphic Climate Change, are the most compelling and well evidenced theories to explain their associated phenomena available.

Any dis-belief in any of these theories should be based on equally compelling contradictory evidence. Any dis-belief not supported by compelling arguments can be assumed to be motivated by agenda, or gullibility to a biased party.

No assumption needs to be made towards those that believe the best available explanation.

Disagree, you can have some rube that doesn't understand anything just latch on to the Big Bang theory for no other reason than he wants to fit in. He is certainly no more logical or more intelligent than someone like Turok who's been proposing a cyclical model of the universe.
 
I think people who are sympathetic to the thesis of the OP are overwhelmingly more likely to be the type to deny evolution or any cosmological framework outside the Bible.

Waste of time.
 
Again, if you're talking about who is the better group of critical thinkers, then motivation matters when discussing the nature of disbelief. I do think that a person who generally buys science because they see how effective science is at explaining the natural world is doing a better job of thinking critically than those who reject some aspects of science because it conflicts with their religious belief. Neither are as good of critical thinkers (in that domain at least) as people who actually examine the evidence, but it's not wrong for people to say 'I don't understand cosmology but I do recognize the track record science has in explaining things and so I will accept the conclusions of experts in that field'. They are definitely thinking more critically than those who say 'you have no expertise or are possibly lying because what you say conflicts with my religious beliefs'.

Neither exhibits a high level of critical thinking without a doubt, but the two are not equivalent. And attempts to draw such an equivalency, if that is indeed what you're doing, strikes me as a backhanded equivocation of religiously motivated rejection of science with mere lack of rigorous scientific education.

I agree with you, except I think it is wrong to put forth the "scientific truth", as the actual fact.


If someone says "Scientists are dumb, God made the world 6,000 years ago, not the Big Bang". It is certainly fine to challenge them. But then when you put forth alternative as "It was the Big Bang, not God", and you feel intellectually superior to them, if when I think we have a problem.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
1,236,645
Messages
55,431,510
Members
174,776
Latest member
kilgorevontrouty
Back
Top