Are people too quick to accept "science"?

Good post, but I disagree. Certainly, they have faith (or confidence if that word offends some people) in the scientific process for sure, but that faith leads them to have faith in popular "conclusions".

Without getting too philosophical, the scientific method certainly works well enough for sure, but its almost like people think science in some areas is finished. Announce that you don't believe in the Big Bang, for example. You will be considered a mouth-breathing retard incapable of walking and chewing gum by most people here. These people believe themselves to be superior for subscribing the Big Bang theory, because they perceive it as popular with scientists. Now, I believe the scientific method will continue to undermine the Big Bang until future generations consider us silly for ever believing it, but this belief is considered heretical to many on here because it goes against the "orthodoxy", even though my belief is itself, founded in science. They aren't critical of what they believe. They just want something to believe that lets them feel superior to others who don't believe it.

if you are trying to descredit the big bang so you can validate big daddy on the sky coming out of the blue adam eve talking snake noa bla bla bla vs the big bang... yeah people is going to laugh at you.
 
You dont need to refute something that provides no evidence for the claims you are making, thats why the null hypothesis is always the default hypothesis.

I wonder how can you claim to be so smart and still fall for BS from social sciences when they fit your criteria. The vast majority of the scientific consensus of people actually studying human inheritance said the book is BS.

This illistrates the point in the OP exactly.

You accept the conclusion without questioning, yet you don't know any of the reasoning. I'm not saying the conclusion is right or wrong. I'm saying that you aren't being critical.
 
LOL we are scared because we think that money should be better spent in actual science than some idiot psychologist playing around with data?

There is research being done on the brain and genetics everyday.

You are doing exactly what people say NOT to do. You are making fun of it and refusing to look. And Watson and many others like him are not 'idiot' psychologists.
 
if you are trying to descredit the big bang so you can validate big daddy on the sky coming out of the blue adam eve talking snake noa bla bla bla vs the big bang... yeah people is going to laugh at you.

Thats not what anyone is talking about.
 
Read the book. And James Watson is a near genius and provided 'evidence' for his claims. But again he is silenced

Silenced how? what research was silenced? Watson being a genius is pointless.

John Nash was a genius too, should i believe that all men with red ties are secretly communists?

http://www.amazon.com/Troublesome-Inheritance-Genes-Human-History/dp/1594204462[/QUOTE]

Read a book that was criticized by 144 actualspecialists on the field? sure.

Im pretty sure they start pretty nice and give a nice background until it starts making outlandish claims with zero evidence.

It has great reviews.

Im pretty sure books against global warming also have great reviews

No need for attacks. The same attacks that were used against the Bell Curve are proven to be illogical.

Because actual evidence trumped out in the end.
 
Not to beat a dead horse, but people are equally frustrated at laymen who just google the consensus on a subject and imply they are more intelligent than anyone who disagrees with it. It is sometimes the case that the person who disagrees does so because they are more knowledgable in the area and disagree with some nuance, and it's the case that the laymen just suffers from a type of Dunning-Krugger effect. It's not as if knowledge and intelligence are synonymous.

Not more intelligent, more rational than other laymen who disagree with the consensus.
 
Ah f#ck it I give up.

The propaganda is too deep and most minds are soft and in the gutter. Let the world burn and let the gods rule as they should. To hell with everyone
 
But this is true for evolutionists as well. They are convinced of evolution so they look at every piece of information and think 'how does this fit within my paradigm? I know macro evolution is real even though I have never observed it. I mean its fact so there is no reason to examine this information and see how it may challenge my paradigm. I will instead spend my energy trying to make it fit. And if it doesn't fit I shall brush it off as an "anomaly" and something we just don't know yet'.

I look at mass graves, dragon legends, mushy dinosaur tissue, ancient drawings and writings depicting and describing dinosaurs in great detail and think "hmm...maybe they saw some dinosaurs". Whereas someone who is already convinced they died out 65 million years ago are going to look at that and think "oh cmon...they were obviously just drawing random made up shit and it just so happens to look and sound just like dinosaurs. What? I'm not being naive at all. I'm listening to the experts...."

We all have a lens we look and filter information through. These mythical beings called "scientists" or "experts" are no different.

What you described is exactly how science is supposed to function. You come up with a theory consistent with the evidence, and you modify your theory until a better theory comes along. Do you really think you have a scientifically more likely theory than evolution to explain the origin and development of species? You mention cave paintings etc. Yes, you could construe those as evidence that people and dinosaurs lived side by side. But science is among other things about trying to objectively weigh evidence, and the evidence for people and dinosaurs not having lived side by side in terms of carbon and radioactive dating and geology is objectively much stronger than dragon legends. But if there were stronger evidence that they did, what science would do is modify its theory or else replace it with a new and more explanatory one. What you do, in contrast, is deny any evidence that conflicts with your 'theory' (e.g. religion) which may never be modified lest, I don't know, god smite you. If you were willing to change your notion of nature in all the ways necessary to accommodate the weight of evidence it would indeed be more scientific, but it also wouldn't look very religious as god is not really all that necessary for a parsimonious theory of the origin of life. And that's unacceptable to you, hence you do what you do in drawing false equivalences between the fossil record and How To Train Your Dragon.
 
This is either a science hipster post or a solipsism post and both are highly arrogant.
 
Silenced how? what research was silenced? Watson being a genius is pointless.

John Nash was a genius too, should i believe that all men with red ties are secretly communists?

http://www.amazon.com/Troublesome-Inheritance-Genes-Human-History/dp/1594204462

Read a book that was criticized by 144 actualspecialists on the field? sure.

Im pretty sure they start pretty nice and give a nice background until it starts making outlandish claims with zero evidence.



Im pretty sure books against global warming also have great reviews



Because actual evidence trumped out in the end.

What are you not understanding?


They didn't even read his book. HE ASKED them to prove him wrong and nobody has done that.


MY GOD! You are a lap dog
 
It's not reasonable to know everything about everything. We need to understand basic principals, and enough history to be able to make educated judgments.

You need to learn enough to be able to build a good bull shit detector, if your detector doesn't smell bullshit, there's no reason to doubt the source.
Evolution make sense, it correlates with multiple scientific fields, and has no compelling evidence against it, and there's no compelling competing theories.
I feel there's no rational reason to question the basic or core principals of the theory.

There's a lot of "science" that sounds like bullshit to me, lots of the anti-gmo claims, anti-vax stuff, and even some statements on anthropomorphic climate change seem far fetched.
When something does set off my bs detector, I will take the time to read source material and writings on both sides.

I think this philosophy is all you can really expect from the general populace.
 
Not more intelligent, more rational than other laymen who disagree with the consensus.

Not necessarily more rational, either. One can accept a consensus because it fits his agenda, and not understand anything about the consensus, or even care about who or why it is the consensus. They would not be more rational.

It's like suggesting that someone who studies cosmology proposes an alternative to the Big Bang, as has been seen recently. You can't suggest that someone who believes in the Big Bang is more rational or intelligent, neither is necessarily true.
 
This illistrates the point in the OP exactly.

You accept the conclusion without questioning, yet you don't know any of the reasoning. I'm not saying the conclusion is right or wrong. I'm saying that you aren't being critical.

So i should read all the crap that comes out because there is a chance that the vast majority of the scientific consensus is wrong?

I saw a 90 min youtube video arguing about flat earth theory. Am i a sheep for believing the earth is not flat without seeing the video?
 
It's an interesting question. In general, I don't think people are more credulous of science than they ever have been. The War Room is a terrible sample because it's filled with weird extremists for the most part (myself being one of them in many ways). But I think you should distinguish between faith in science and faith in the scientific establishment. I don't think most people have much faith in science per se because as you correctly point out they know very little of it. Most scientists know relatively little outside their specialty, there's just too much to know to go deeply into more than 1-2 areas. What I think people have faith in is the scientific consensus and the scientific method, even if they wouldn't express it like that. We believe it when scientists tell us stuff because science has done more to explain the natural world, make testable predictions that turn out to be true, and better human life than any other institution in human history. There is a ton of bad science out there, but most of it falls by the wayside in time because that's how science proceeds.

You mention things like competing models, inconsistent evidence, etc. as reasons people shouldn't have faith in the conclusions of science. You're only partially right. People shouldn't assume that the scientific consensus is true in some absolute sense, they do so because they don't understand the nature of 'truth' in science. It's always contingent on either new evidence or a new theory that explains the existing evidence better and more parsimoniously. People love to site Popper and the idea of falsifiability, and while that's an important aspect to some sorts of science the way science really proceeds I think is closer to Lakatos's view of theories in line with the evidence, tinkered with in areas they're found lacking, retained only until a better or more complete theory comes along at which point they're discarded. Science is not a collection of facts it's essentially a set of working conjectures. That said, it's the most effective set of working conjectures for explaining the world we've ever seen and as such peoples' faith in the curators of that body of knowledge is wholly justified.

So while I agree with you that people should be more aware of the epistemic uncertainty inherent in science and not worship scientists or the scientific consensus, in general the faith people in have in science to explain the world is completely correct.

Excellent post.

Good post, but I disagree. Certainly, they have faith (or confidence if that word offends some people) in the scientific process for sure, but that faith leads them to have faith in popular "conclusions".

Without getting too philosophical, the scientific method certainly works well enough for sure, but its almost like people think science in some areas is finished. Announce that you don't believe in the Big Bang, for example. You will be considered a mouth-breathing retard incapable of walking and chewing gum by most people here. These people believe themselves to be superior for subscribing the Big Bang theory, because they perceive it as popular with scientists. Now, I believe the scientific method will continue to undermine the Big Bang until future generations consider us silly for ever believing it, but this belief is considered heretical to many on here because it goes against the "orthodoxy", even though my belief is itself, founded in science. They aren't critical of what they believe. They just want something to believe that lets them feel superior to others who don't believe it.

I think you have to look at the purpose of the scientific rhetoric in any particular discussion. The vast minority of discussions, especially on here, are about one isolated truth and how close science has or hasn't gotten to that truth. In political discussions about the implications of science for policy and lifestyle and worldview the emphasis is predominately on shifting your opponent away from his own position and/or towards your own, and the language of certainty is much more effective, albeit less accurate, within the scope of those discussions.

As for the problem of the OP, I'm not really sure how the average person should go about addressing it. You have to have some faith in the institutions generating scientific knowledge because there simply isn't enough time to build the complete understanding that's arguably rationally required for a scientific worldview. Cultural mythology still needs to do a lot of the work. Sometimes questioning how well our current scientific institutions generate reliable knowledge can lead down the road to quackery, but it's an imperative question nonetheless.
 
Shit, not sure what happened there. Edited the original post. Link here

Thanks

http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=youre_not_a_nerd

gas_logo_fkeys.jpg



There was an old ATI GPU ad where the sexy asian girl was plugging the video cable into the motherboards onboard graphics, not the actual video card. This reminded me of that.
 
You are doing exactly what people say NOT to do. You are making fun of it and refusing to look. And Watson and many others like him are not 'idiot' psychologists.

I was talking about race and IQ research.

And Watson is not a psychologist indeed, he knows pretty well that you cant make a scientific statement without evidence to back it up.

Just like i dont believe John Nash when he said that people with red ties were communist going after him.
 
Ah f#ck it I give up.

The propaganda is too deep and most minds are soft and in the gutter. Let the world burn and let the gods rule as they should. To hell with everyone

Yes, when people disagree with me its because of propaganda, everyone should take my word without a single spec of evidence.
 
Excellent post.



I think you have to look at the purpose of the scientific rhetoric in any particular discussion. The vast minority of discussions, especially on here, are about one isolated truth and how close science has or hasn't gotten to that truth. In political discussions about the implications of science for policy and lifestyle and worldview the emphasis is predominately on shifting your opponent away from his own position and/or towards your own, and the language of certainty is much more effective, albeit less accurate, within the scope of those discussions.

As for the problem of the OP, I'm not really sure how the average person should go about addressing it. You have to have some faith in the institutions generating scientific knowledge because there simply isn't enough time to build the complete understanding that's arguably rationally required for a scientific worldview. Cultural mythology still needs to do a lot of the work. Sometimes questioning how well our current scientific institutions generate reliable knowledge can lead down the road to quackery, but it's an imperative question nonetheless.

I think it is ok to say "I don't know".

I'm not a car mechanic. I can't fix cars for shit. My car breaks, I go to a mechanic, and he tells me what is wrong, and the cost to repair it. I take is word. Depending on the cost, uncritically. If he told me it is going to be $1000, I might do some research. If it is $150, I'll probably just pull out the cash without any questions. Like you said, it is impractical to be study everything in depth. I don't have the time to become a certified mechanic to dispute him.

However, at no point will I believe myself to be superior because of my acceptance of his word. If I go to work and say to my friend "My car needs new spark plugs", and he says "Eh, I don't really think it is a spark plug issue", I don't say "Holy shit you are fucking retarded!!! How can you be so stupid. Critical thinkers like myself know this is a spark plug issue. I hope spark plug deniers like you never breed". Instead, I would be much more humble, and say that I will defer to the experts, but also admit that my friend could be right, and that I can't be sure without doing my own research (which I'm too lazy to do)
 
"Eh, I don't really think it is a spark plug issue", I don't say "Holy shit you are fucking retarded!!! How can you be so stupid. Critical thinkers like myself know this is a spark plug issue. I hope spark plug deniers like you never breed"

Applaud.gif.
 
Back
Top