Are people forgetting that the UFC, Novitzky and Jones said that...

[The Schmoop]

you realize he failed 3 tests and passed 4 from aug to dec?

Yeah that’s what I’m saying. It was in his system for months, supposedly lingers for years but now it’s gone? It’s a get out of jail free card without an expiration date unless he goes heavy on the sauce.

 

[felmmando]

i thought you were implying the 7 years applied to him. he's just saying he doesn't know how long it could be there. it's a pretty meaningless statement overall. fact is we don't know.

I didn't find it so meaningless. If (and it's a big if) USADA told him the drug can linger for seven years, he can use this Get out of Jail Free card for the rest of his career.
I mean, what is the alternative? If he pops again, can they turn around and say, "Ooops, we were mistaken; the drug only stays in your body for two years. You've reingested."?

 

[kflo]

Yeah that’s what I’m saying. It was in his system for months, supposedly lingers for years but now it’s gone? It’s a get out of jail free card without an expiration date unless he goes heavy on the sauce.

it was in and out of his system. do you understand that? it wasn't just there for months. it is there sometimes and not there other times.

 

[kflo]

I didn't find it so meaningless. If (and it's a big if) USADA told him the drug can linger for seven years, he can use this Get out of Jail Free card for the rest of his career.
I mean, what is the alternative? If he pops again, can they turn around and say, "Ooops, we were mistaken; the drug only stays in your body for two years. You've reingested."?

he can only use it if his results exhibit the exact same characteristics. it's impossible to do that when you're dosing and taking random tests without taking giant risks of a lifetime ban. to think he can magically manipulate his metabolites to just show this one in trace levels....

 

[Deicide030]

It will potentially show up in some tests and not in others because there is some residue of the drug left in his body. But this residue will only become detectable if they've happened to pulse into his blood at some time shortly before the test. Therefore, sometimes it will be detectable, sometimes not. It's unpredictable; it's far too complex for science to predict at this point, since so many factors are at play.

On the contrary Novitsky said the science is so good on these tests that they are picking up this tiny doses that are clearly making in problematic ufc and another league.

 

[felmmando]

he can only use it if his results exhibit the exact same characteristics. it's impossible to do that when you're dosing and taking random tests without taking giant risks of a lifetime ban. to think he can magically manipulate his metabolites to just show this one in trace levels....

Is it really that hard? It seems to me all he has to do is to do what he did leading up to UFC 232; it's not exactly uncharted territory for him. Frank Mir and Tom Lawlor also popped for picograms, so I think the method is out there.

 

[Deleted member 385619]

the pictograms will be staying in his system for years to come? They were constantly pointing this out and why did it not show up in this test but the pre-fight test?

True or not, I believe pulsing explains why he could fail one test and not another. Seems like a no brainer actually

 

[Aluminati]

that's some good tin foil...

Like all good tin foil, it's about sprinkling a few truths in the shit pile.

 

[egk]

At least in principle, the window of detection and the drug's permanence in the body are distinct. It is possible that it could linger for years but fall below detectable levels. Mir says they told him the drug would be out of the body in at most a few months. But if the drug hasn't changed nor has Mir's metabolism, their saying it would be out of his body within months truly was inconsistent with what we're hearing about Jones. Now, if what changed was the sensitivity of the tests, this raises questions that should be addressed: obviously the residue detected in Mir was detectable with the test that existed at the time. What distinguishes that residue from the older residues that are only detectable with the new and improved test? If there really is such a difference, it should be easy to determine whether Jones' is doping or just pulsing: just give him the old test. If it comes back positive, you know he doped recently.

I'm not trying to be a dick here but I really can't follow what you're trying to say.
At the time they told Mir it would be out of his body in a few months, that was their knowledge at the time. Times have changed. I don't think it's that odd that over a year and a half later they'd have better detection of these drugs. That's how drug testing has always worked. It's how they've found drugs in old samples of Olympians from years ago.

If this "pulsing" is true then weight cutting could account for multiple positive tests along with others that were negative. If he was microdosing, I'd think they'd more likely be positive all the time if the tests are that sensitive but I'm sure no expert so I won't claim it either way.

As I understand it, he didn't ask them to retest anything; he wanted them to test supplements he had taken over six months ago but had no reason to test until he popped.

Did Mir claim to have unopened samples of those supplements from 6 months ago? How would they get them otherwise? I think everyone knows by know the whole "it was the supplements" is all bullshit anyway. I always remember Sonnen saying the first thing athletes do when they pop hot is to find out what they popped for then go on google and search to see what things contain that same substance then claim that's what they took.

Yes and normally an athlete who pops again is considered a repeat offender and punished more harshly, not less. Jones cannily managed to reverse that rule.

Jones is a blatant counterexample.

People will believe what they want regardless. I mean people even believe the moon landings were faked and no amount of evidence will dissuade them. We live in an age of conspiracy theories.

I personally think it's silly for people to claim Jones never doped but again, I think all the top guys have. Not necessarily steroids but not all PEDs are steroids.

 

[treestump]

They just gave Jones a free pass to test positive in pictograms.

When he got caught and suspended a year and half ago ... he was caught with 80 pitcograms. Which they believed was first time use.

60 pictograms a year and half later ... that is one amazing steroid where you can accidently take a tainted supplement dust version of it and its good for a year and half later.

The 5-meo DMT of steroids

 

[The Schmoop]

it was in and out of his system. do you understand that? it wasn't just there for months. it is there sometimes and not there other times.

Or he just keeps microdosing because Dana is starving for star power and allows it because he needs Jon active. Crazy that no other professional doper in other sports has dropped this bullshit excuse. It’s almost as if this was the first incident in sports history.

I’ve been looking for weeks and have zero instances of this occurring in any other competition that tests for banned substances.

 

[kflo]

Or he just keeps microdosing because Dana is starving for star power and allows it because he needs Jon active. Crazy that no other professional doper in other sports has dropped this bullshit excuse. It’s almost as if this was the first incident in sports history.

I’ve been looking for weeks and have zero instances of this occurring in any other competition that tests for banned substances.

experts have given statements that they've never heard of microdosing tbol but sherdog thinks it's the likely reason.

again, look at the cody stanley case.

tbol has a known long detection time now. it's pretty stupid substance for athletes getting tested to use. the detection window increased.

 

[Snowy1]

Picograms will only show up when Jon needs a little extra jet fuel for training camps. He'll probably be picogram less for this fight.

Great strategy by Jon and the UFC to con the general public.

 

[kflo]

Picograms will only show up when Jon needs a little extra jet fuel for training camps. He'll probably be picogram less for this fight.

Great strategy by Jon and the UFC to con the general public.

Don’t forget usada, smrtl and every other silent expert.

 

[felmmando]

I'm not trying to be a dick here but I really can't follow what you're trying to say.
At the time they told Mir it would be out of his body in a few months, that was their knowledge at the time. Times have changed. I don't think it's that odd that over a year and a half later they'd have better detection of these drugs. That's how drug testing has always worked. It's how they've found drugs in old samples of Olympians from years ago.

Right. But they did detect something in Mir's sample. Obviously, they used the test that was available at the time. And they told him that, given the state of the art then, it could only have been from a recent ingestion.
Contrast that with Jones: he's flagged for that metabolite and told that the picograms detected are from his doping two years earlier.
You're suggesting the difference is because the test evolved between Mir popping and Jones popping: the new test can detect "pulses" from two year-old ingestion but the old one couldn't. If there really is that difference between the old test and the new test, just give Jones the old test after he fails the new one. If he passes the old test, you know it really was from an old ingestion, because only the new test can detect residues from old ingestions.
Do I make more sense now?

Did Mir claim to have unopened samples of those supplements from 6 months ago? How would they get them otherwise? I think everyone knows by know the whole "it was the supplements" is all bullshit anyway.

Not every batch of a supplement will be identical, especially if it comes to contamination, so I've read it's not unusual for professional athletes to keep a small amount of the supplements they use precisely for testing in the eventuality that they pop. They're not unopened, they're remainders of the batch they actually took. I share your scepticism about the supplement excuse but then, Junior Dos Santos was apparently exonerated on the basis of a tainted supplement, so I'll keep an open mind.

 

[The Schmoop]

experts have given statements that they've never heard of microdosing tbol but sherdog thinks it's the likely reason.

again, look at the cody stanley case.

tbol has a known long detection time now. it's pretty stupid substance for athletes getting tested to use. the detection window increased.

Bless your heart for placing Bones in the intelligent athlete category. That’s adorable.

 

[egk]

Right. But they did detect something in Mir's sample. Obviously, they used the test that was available at the time. And they told him that, given the state of the art then, it could only have been from a recent ingestion.
Contrast that with Jones: he's flagged for that metabolite and told that the picograms detected are from his doping two years earlier.
You're suggesting the difference is because the test evolved between Mir popping and Jones popping: the new test can detect "pulses" from two year-old ingestion but the old one couldn't. If there really is that difference between the old test and the new test, just give Jones the old test after he fails the new one. If he passes the old test, you know it really was from an old ingestion, because only the new test can detect residues from old ingestions.
Do I make more sense now?

Yes, i see what you're saying now. I'm not sure if the tests are even different or if it's just the detection is different now. Mir could also enter VADA (it's voluntary after all) and submit to testing to see if he also pulses. Since he's so concerned with his "innocence". lol

Not every batch of a supplement will be identical, especially if it comes to contamination, so I've read it's not unusual for professional athletes to keep a small amount of the supplements they use precisely for testing in the eventuality that they pop. They're not unopened, they're remainders of the batch they actually took. I share your scepticism about the supplement excuse but then, Junior Dos Santos was apparently exonerated on the basis of a tainted supplement, so I'll keep an open mind.

That's not how it works. The athlete can submit their supplement but they also have to have an unopened batch from a store or wherever they got it from for comparision. To prove it was tainted before they got it. Otherwise anyone could add anything to an opened supplement and claim it was there all along.

I believe Romero was able to do that. My objection to this is why wouldn't athletes find then buy something they know is "contaminated" and then dose themselves with that? Then if caught they can claim it came from the supplements.

 

[ermac88]

the pictograms will be staying in his system for years to come? They were constantly pointing this out and why did it not show up in this test but the pre-fight test?

Victor Conte, ped expert explains how this is the case

 

[felmmando]

That's not how it works. The athlete can submit their supplement but they also have to have an unopened batch from a store or wherever they got it from for comparision. To prove it was tainted before they got it. Otherwise anyone could add anything to an opened supplement and claim it was there all along.

I believe Romero was able to do that. My objection to this is why wouldn't athletes find then buy something they know is "contaminated" and then dose themselves with that? Then if caught they can claim it came from the supplements.

You're right, testing for tainted supplements is a problem any way you look at it. The contents of an open container can be tampered with; even if the open container is contaminated, a closed one won't necessarily come from the same batch. As for the opportunity to juice with supplements that are known to be tainted, all I can think of is that the supplemented should be prohibited as soon as contamination is detected.

 

[egk]

You're right, testing for tainted supplements is a problem any way you look at it. The contents of an open container can be tampered with; even if the open container is contaminated, a closed one won't necessarily come from the same batch. As for the opportunity to juice with supplements that are known to be tainted, all I can think of is that the supplemented should be prohibited as soon as contamination is detected.

The whole supplement excuse is something I always use when talking about why I believe most everyone is or has been on something.

I mean we all know all the fighters take copious amounts of supplements thinking they will make them bigger, stronger, faster, able to train longer and heal up quicker, right? At the same time we're supposed to believe that these same guys when faced with something that actually does do all that are saying "nahhh, I aint gonna take that stuff"?