Economy AOC and co. vindicated: Amazon expanding in NY without massive giveaway from gov.

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Phisher, Jul 11, 2019.

  1. Rational Poster

    Rational Poster War Room Messiah Platinum Member

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    Your moral compass is so fucked it's impossible for you to ever be right.
     
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  2. grimballer

    grimballer Silver Belt

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    Yeah cause we know it’s more important to be “morally right “ than factually correct

    Another one of her gems...
     
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  3. Rational Poster

    Rational Poster War Room Messiah Platinum Member

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    Factually or otherwise, your brain is just that warped.
     
  4. west42

    west42 Brown Belt

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    Yeah, but, like,at least now new York won't have to pay Amazon 3 billion
     
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  5. Beaver Brownlee

    Beaver Brownlee Cunt punter

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    Yeah, because like, that's how tax incentives work, you gotta just pay for it.

    Thankfully NY now won't have to deal with the projected $35B in new revenue Amazon will be generating either. They really dodged that bullet.
     
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  6. west42

    west42 Brown Belt

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    Too bad Virginia doesnt have anyone like AOC who will chase away those terrible corporations trying to open new facilities.
     
  7. PainIsLIfe

    PainIsLIfe Gold Belt

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    The HQ2 jobs were going to be high paying managment job that create higher tax revenue.

    HQ2 went to Arlington so I'm not sure how Amazon adding warehouse jobs in NY vindicates AOC.

    But imI'not surprised that lefties want to spin it that way.
     
  8. PainIsLIfe

    PainIsLIfe Gold Belt

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    They're trying to justify AOC costing NYC an estimated 27 billion in eventual tax revenue.

    Unless this is some major expansion that generates unprecedented ROI then there point is stupid.
     
  9. MikeMcMann

    MikeMcMann Gold Belt

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    you really are not thinking of this properly.

    The tax incentives are almost entirely tied to a return or 'not taking' of money Amazon would otherwise pay if they hit their growth targets with the new facility.

    I'll explain.

    Your city has no Facebook office today. Facebook says they are creating a new secondary head office that will generate X jobs over 10 years and generate all sorts of tax revenue.

    A city then says to attract them ' of the $30B or so in taxes you will owe and pay us in those 10 years we are willing to give you back or let you keep $3B as long as you spend that money in the following areas such as employee training, real estate and infrastructure improvements and other'.

    Facebook then says YES and over 10 years the City gets an addition $27B in tax revenue but not $30B.

    So now AOC drives Facebook away instead by shaming them. That city is not up $3B. They did not save $3B and they do not have $3B to spend on other priorities. What they have is a loss of $27B.
     
  10. cincymma79

    cincymma79 Silver Belt

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    And she called Nancy racist
     
  11. JonesBones

    JonesBones Excuse my contraflow

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  12. MikeMcMann

    MikeMcMann Gold Belt

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    and this the problem that so many on the Left have in their vast ignorance of business and how an entire positive eco system is built up around business that provides so many benefits beyond just tax dollars collected.


    An ignorant person on the Left like AOC thinks an article like that is proof Virginia is screwing up. Imagine how much extra tax money they would have for social services if only they never gain any of those companies incentives to move in. They do not see that it is the business climate created that draws those businesses in, it is the investments in infrastructure and other that contributes so much taxes above and beyond just he direct corporate tax, it is the high paying stable jobs that prompt citizens to get higher educations and chase those jobs, and its the extra employment that ensures less people need social services such as welfare and unemployment benefits.

    You cannot educate many on the left to understand that and instead they see it as 'if only we could have stopped the gov't giving those credits we would have all that extra money to spend on social services'. Ya they would have a fraction of the employers, a much larger base of people on welfare and needing unemployment, a less educated work base and less infrastructure. But what a win, you drove them away and did not let them keep part of the money they would have generated in our economy and now are not.
     
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  13. JonesBones

    JonesBones Excuse my contraflow

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    The people you were responding to on the subject are so ignorant they should never be allowed to post on this subject again. They are fucking clueless. Such brazen stupidity. They are holding up progress too. Majority of New Yorkers supported Amazon. The Mayor. Governor. Both Democrats. Rep Meeks. Basically the vast majority of Democrats, but a few stupid turds think they won some moral victory. They say the right votes against their own economic interests. Please.
     
  14. MikeMcMann

    MikeMcMann Gold Belt

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    When I am faced with stubborn resistance and ignorance on this from left leaning friends I always try the following example and I presented this on this forum more than once...

    -------

    Imagine if after the auto collapse, Michigan was able to proactively offer massive tax holidays (zero tax for 10 years and other perks) to Tech Corporation to move into the area en masse and to take up and renovate facilities and re-train workers. And the perks the gov't gave Big Tech were the massive tax holidays, massive re-training credits and massive infrastructure revitalization credits against all the expenditures Big Tech would need to make to enter and grow in that market.

    Would you approve knowing that these incentives go way deeper than anything the auto industry, or any industry in Michigan got prior?

    -------

    I have argued against more than a few here who have said no they would not approve. its corporate welfare and therefore bad. 'Why would you let the corporations keep those billions in tax dollars when that economy needs them for social services?'


    Many on the left cannot see the Forrest for the trees. Detroit is in a shambles. Mass unemployment, home values and corporate real estate in free fall and worthless and even if Michigan gets zero corporate revenue from this the gov't and citizens benefit massively as home values, corporate real estate, jobs and other infrastructure benefits all come to the area. F*ck the corporate taxes for 10 years. Collect them again after the area returns to health.

    I recall one guy arguing that would be so unfair as the employees would still be paying personal income tax so why let the corporation off. they cannot see that the employee paying personal tax is a good thing. they have a job. and that is exactly the type of argument AOC would make after the fact. that this is a bad deal because the employees are paying and the corporation is not.


    Look what Ireland did, and were vastly criticized for by outside markets. they gave deep incentives to the Tech Industry to set up in Ireland when ireland prior had no real tech scene. Those incentives have built one of Europe's strongest tech clusters and Ireland is benefitting from very high paying jobs. The country is doing better and the citizens are doing better. Its win/win. but you have some on the left who argue 'but, but, they have foregone some tax revenue from the corporation to gain all that. That is not worth it. We should drive those jobs away'. And they think they are exhibiting deep thought or acting on a higher moral principle when in fact they are acting from dogmatic ignorance that any corporate break must be bad.
     
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  15. AlexDB9

    AlexDB9 Black Belt

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    Pure comedy, I don’t want to call posters retarded because I’ve worked with special needs children and don’t want to offend their intelligence....but man I hope they are just trolling and or Canadian haha
     
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  16. nostradumbass

    nostradumbass Gold Belt

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    It would be comedy if they were kidding to parody 15 year olds who don't know anything, but sohei is like a 2004 account and peb is a 2003 and they both thought NYC was cutting amazon a $3 billion check to move there. He even said "amazon could just move after NY has spent the $3 billion and they'd be in the hole for years to come". Lol, what? These are older guys who don't even know how effing tax credits work. I even posted the specific tax credits applied and the amounts.

    Dude then used the analogy of a store charging someone to enter, as if that made any sense. If he wanted to stick with the store/customer analogy, it would be more like a store kicking someone out for trying to use $25 of coupons on $240 of groceries, then the customer leaves and buys a carton of ice cream a few weeks later at full price and the store calls that a win.
     
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  17. panamaican

    panamaican Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    But there's a decent trove of evidence out there that suggests these deals don't always pan out as advertised.

    https://www.americanprogress.org/is...771/realities-economic-development-subsidies/

    No one intelligent is arguing against the theory in play. It's the reality that needs investigation.

    In the case of NYC, they're not in a position like Ireland was. San Francisco is in a different position than someplace like St. Louis. I would suggest that NoVa probably doesn't need to hand out tax incentives to lure large corporations either, trading on their proximity to the seat of the federal government and the massive educational infrastructure provided by the DMV metropolitan area. The West Coast isn't a tech hub because the cities play the tax incentive game - they're a tech hub because they have the university system to produce high level graduates and a series of high end companies already entrenched.

    I just don't see the point in paying for something that you can probably get for free.

    The argument in favor seems to be a zero sum model. If they don't land Company X then they've got nothing. But places like NYC will always be attracting new companies, growing new companies and filling their tax coffers accordingly. A second tier city like Philadelphia or Detroit isn't the same attractive destination and probably does need to sweeten the pot but only to beat out a NYC or a San Fran, not to be beat out a Tulsa.
     
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  18. AlexDB9

    AlexDB9 Black Belt

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    I mean I don’t think even @Sohei or @PEB are that dumb, maybe I’m giving them too much credit though

    Per cuomo himself this deal as much of an out of the park homer as one could imagine. NY would realistically give nothing and return with everything. The bottom line despite all the lunacy posted here by what I lovingly call goofs is that money was lost and a great deal was squandered.....and for what? Nothing

    The comedy for me started with the socialism and anecdotes talk....whatever those mean....and like piss before the shit, their arguments were very predictable. Like I said unless their bottom line is personally fucked with they won’t ever understand
     
  19. MikeMcMann

    MikeMcMann Gold Belt

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    ya no, I am not arguing against crony capitalism and the abuses therein.

    I am also not arguing that the economics support every locale throwing perks and benefits and incentives at corporations to locate their next office there.

    I think we would all agree that Silicon Valley was offering huge tax breaks to tech companies to move in that would just be an unnecessary gift and offset of the income they would get regardless, so thus a net negative. I hope we all see why Detroit might benefit though. I cannot say where that area of NYS would fall in the spectrum of benefit or loss as I do not know it well enough.

    i am speaking to a very reflexive part of the Left who react as if all tax breaks to corporations are bad and corporate welfare and you are better off not having the corporation than having one with tax breaks or incentives given. It is that view that informed AOC declaration of initial victory as if she had saved NYS $3B that could now be spent on teachers.
     
  20. panamaican

    panamaican Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Fair enough and no disagreement.

    There are some who are talking about this as if it's always the right decision for every municipality to pursue. I admittedly don't particularly care about AOC's argument against it so I never read much about her reasoning.
     
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