Anyone here compete in the sport karate orgs like the NBL, NASKA, WKC, etc?

[Guestx]

Thread title says it all.

I'm a traditionalist at heart. I tried MT and it just didnt do it for me. It's an effective combat art, but what can I say, the gi . . . the philosophy . . . the Japanese/Chinese connection of the TMAs is what I'm attracted to.

I'm going to check out a sport karate school after the holidays that has a good reputation on the competition circuit, especially the NBL. I've never personally competed in the competition karate world and was wondering what it's like.

Any info would be appreciated.

 

[Da Crusha]

I did that kind of sport karate for several years as a teen. it has some positives. it teaches you to close the distance very quickly and also teaches you to avoid being struck. it teaches you good footwork to get the most advantageous position and teaches you to strike with very quick techniques. its pretty much the foundation of my stand up. on the flip side. it can teach you to close the distance, get your point and then leave you in a vulnerable position to be counter struck. it also teaches you that proper technique doesnt mean much either since a tap can get you the point. in sport karate once you get the point the judge will split you up again, so bad habits can develop.

I remember one time I was doing bag training and I went to hit the bag really hard with a hook kick, and then in the last second right before impact I shifted my hips and only tapped the bag. I realized that I focused entirely too much on point sparring and after that I began consciously training to do maximum damage.

eventually I left the school and joined a school that does not focus on tournaments. Now I focus on more dangerous techniques found in the kata, like knee strikes, elbow strikes, attacking joints etc. I try to always follow up instead of stopping after getting the point, and I never do techniques that couldnt actually damage some one in a fight.

 

[Jukai]

I'll try and bite my tongue on some of these organizations. I haven't competed in a while, but when you have so called 'open' point-karate tournaments, things can get pretty damn sloppy. I'm not so fond of the NBL. Not saying it's not fun and there aren't some great fighters, but because there is no 'format' that registers contact, you'll have the craziest stuff be thrown at you. Some of us at our dojo (BACK IN THE DAY... why do I feel old in my mid 20s?) would occasionally go to some NBL events and clean house, but you could lose by some of the stupidest things, the lightest of touches with no form required. Some people walk forward throwing round house kicks without bringing their legs down because if they tapped you with that, they'd get a point. I'd love throwing jumping Uraken Uchi's, they worked every time (if you didn't get points deducted for overly aggressive contact).
There was one I liked, I think it was the WKA. Still very sloppy, but you had to actually make some contact to score a point, and some of those guys would knock you on your ass.

I mainly competed in the classical Okinawan tournament circuits, namely the JKA and the WKF (JKA WF-US and USANKF for American branches). First off, the sense of timing, footwork and distance are just so superior, it's unquestionable. Second, there's a format to how you register a strike-- things are rarely ever sloppy. Third, it still feels VERY traditional, unlike some of these other open tournaments where guys fight in sweats or in warmups or modified, crazy Ryu-esque gis.

Not to say both organizations don't have issues.
To score, you have to show the judges proper 'form' so after you strike, your stance and body is so god damn exaggerated... not to mention you have to stop fighting; in other words, you both strike, freeze up, and then listen to see if the judges thought you did something to deserve a stoppage. Listen too long and the other guy is going to sweep you on your ass.
Both (especially the WKF) are struggling to figure out how to deal with standup grappling and the rules are always changing (too little and you're negating all the great throws of Karate... too much and it can turn into a judo match!).
Both (especially the JKA) struggle with arbitrary contact. In one match, I'll get bashed in the face with a punch and my opponent will get the points. The next match, I hit my opponent the same way in the face and I get a penalty-- it's all about how the judges feel.
And obviously the other big problem is, if you don't do traditional Okinawan karate, you're not going to do well because the techniques are focused around the Okinawan Karates, and mostly for arts like Shotokan, Wado, and Shito (though Goju-Ryu does compete and do well, and some Kyokushin guys even compete just for the footwork and timing).

I still love both, and I do miss the competition.

USANKF/WKF competition:



JKA US:

 

[Guestx]

I did that kind of sport karate for several years as a teen. it has some positives. it teaches you to close the distance very quickly and also teaches you to avoid being struck. it teaches you good footwork to get the most advantageous position and teaches you to strike with very quick techniques. its pretty much the foundation of my stand up. on the flip side. it can teach you to close the distance, get your point and then leave you in a vulnerable position to be counter struck. it also teaches you that proper technique doesnt mean much either since a tap can get you the point. in sport karate once you get the point the judge will split you up again, so bad habits can develop.

. . .

Good post and thanks.

I understand the pitfalls you're talking about regarding stop-point sparring and I have definitely seen some seriously sloppy, almost incomprehensible moves being thrown in those situations.

My primary interest lies in "moderate contact" continuous sparring. I call it "kicboxing lite" and it's appealing to me.

This isn't the best vid, but it's the best I could find in a pinch:

 

[Guestx]

I mainly competed in the classical Okinawan tournament circuits, namely the JKA and the WKF (JKA WF-US and USANKF for American branches). First off, the sense of timing, footwork and distance are just so superior, it's unquestionable. Second, there's a format to how you register a strike-- things are rarely ever sloppy. Third, it still feels VERY traditional, unlike some of these other open tournaments where guys fight in sweats or in warmups or modified, crazy Ryu-esque gis.

Thanks for your thoughts and the vids.

I've actually seen a lot of examples of Shotokan sparring and I agree that a lot of it is very impressive. I would not mind doing something like that, but I wouldn't want it to be the primary (and definitely not only) form of competition that I do. There's just something about having victory or defeat be dependent upon a single strike that doesn't sit well with me. Quite frankly, I don't think I'd be fast enough or have good enough reflexes to win at a very high level.

Ultimately though I'd like to be able to compete in a variety of formats and for a variety of organizations, maybe doing both stop-point and continuous sparring, and even some grappling stuff.

But that's always been how I am. I'm never content doing just one thing. The bad part about that is that is that I end up being a jack of all trades, but it's just the way it is.

 

[Da Crusha]

ohh, I dont know much about the continous sparring division, it was only in its infancy when I stopped competing in those tournaments and our school never competed in it. Personally I would have liked it better.

Our school used to focus on open Tournaments (NBL style) primarily and we would also compete in Traditional sparring (jka style, although I competed in FSKA). at the time I always told my self that I would be better at something full contact where I could actually use my strength since I have a bigger frame and the game of tag wasnt usually in my favor. it wasnt until recently that I got to compete in my first Knockdown Karate Tournament which was an entirely different experience.

The biggest problem I had was not being able to punch the head. in every Tournament and sparring practice I had done before the head has always been a perfectly acceptable target. it effected my typical closing the distance techniques. also I had a fear of getting hit in the head, and "losing the point" because of my point fighting experience. it wasnt until after the fight that I realized how much that effected me. it was definitely a different experience feeling real no pad blows and fighting some one who really wanted to knock me out with a powerful kick to the head. I ended up losing but it was something I felt I had to experience. I plan on competing in the same Tourney next year.

 

[Guestx]

Cool, thanks for the response.

So you competed in a knockdown competition even though you're a Shotokan stylist? The tournaments are "open" like that? How many others didn't come from a knockdown background, do you know?

I do imagine that you'd have to use a different strategy. . . Personally I wish that they would just introduce gloves and allow for punches to the face.

 

[Da Crusha]

it was open to all styles and I think most knockdown tournaments are that way. In my division I was the only Shotokan Practitioner everyone else was Kyokushin. other competitors in the Tournament were Kyokushin of course, Eshin, I saw one Tae Kwon Do student, one Muay thai girl. there was one Ken Zen Do school there one Mongolian knockdown karate school there. In a previous year I saw a Shotokan school there that my former Dojo was really close with so I figured Id be allowed to compete and I didnt see anything about memberships required or anything like that. I just walked up and registered on the day of the event and I didnt have any problems.

I have heard of Kyokushin Tournaments that do allow face punches with gloves. A former student of Oyama that wanted to put emphasis on head punches started it. the Tournament is called shinken shobu I believe.

 

[Jukai]

Every tournament is an open tournament. There's nothing stopping you from competing in a MT system or a Kyokushin knockdown system. The idea is the rules are catered to those systems, and those schools specifically train for that.

You do have to be blindingly fast for JKA style tournaments, but may I suggest USA NKF. It's not a "one hit kill" system like the JKA. You have to win by eight points or more (this is four year old information, but the last time I competed, punches to the body and head were one point, punches to the back and kicks to the body were two points, kicks to the head and sweeps followed by a punch/kick were three points).

Now, I'm going to write a bit more later... I got scolded by my brother who says a lot has changed in my absence, a bunch of people left some organizations to form other organizations... I'll read up and post more info later.

 

[Guestx]

it was open to all styles and I think most knockdown tournaments are that way. In my division I was the only Shotokan Practitioner everyone else was Kyokushin. other competitors in the Tournament were Kyokushin of course, Eshin, I saw one Tae Kwon Do student, one Muay thai girl. there was one Ken Zen Do school there one Mongolian knockdown karate school there. In a previous year I saw a Shotokan school there that my former Dojo was really close with so I figured Id be allowed to compete and I didnt see anything about memberships required or anything like that. I just walked up and registered on the day of the event and I didnt have any problems.

I have heard of Kyokushin Tournaments that do allow face punches with gloves. A former student of Oyama that wanted to put emphasis on head punches started it. the Tournament is called shinken shobu I believe.

Cool. Thanks for that.

I might want to at least test those waters at one point.

I'll have to look into Shinken Shobu as well.

 

[Guestx]

Every tournament is an open tournament. There's nothing stopping you from competing in a MT system or a Kyokushin knockdown system. The idea is the rules are catered to those systems, and those schools specifically train for that.

I know that some tournaments are organization-specific, like ATA TKD tournaments, for instance. But that's good to know that most are not.

You do have to be blindingly fast for JKA style tournaments, but may I suggest USA NKF. It's not a "one hit kill" system like the JKA. You have to win by eight points or more (this is four year old information, but the last time I competed, punches to the body and head were one point, punches to the back and kicks to the body were two points, kicks to the head and sweeps followed by a punch/kick were three points).

That sounds a lot better to me. I'll have to look into it. I know that for the one-hit-kill vids I've seen that I'd have no chance against those guys. They'd hit be before I even thought about fighting back.

The school that I'm looking at teaches both Shotokan and TKD, somehow both full systems, but part of the same curriculum. I know that sounds extremely McDojoish, but like I said before, this school comes highly recommended so I'm going to keep an open mind.

Personally, I'd like to compete in tournaments for both sports.

Now, I'm going to write a bit more later... I got scolded by my brother who says a lot has changed in my absence, a bunch of people left some organizations to form other organizations... I'll read up and post more info later.

Please do.

 

[Sn3d]

Good post and thanks.

I understand the pitfalls you're talking about regarding stop-point sparring and I have definitely seen some seriously sloppy, almost incomprehensible moves being thrown in those situations.

My primary interest lies in "moderate contact" continuous sparring. I call it "kicboxing lite" and it's appealing to me.

This isn't the best vid, but it's the best I could find in a pinch:

That is not kickboxing.. smh

 

[Guestx]

That is not kickboxing.. smh

I just knew someone was going to try to start something in this thread.

 

[k.o. kid]

The school that I'm looking at teaches both Shotokan and TKD, somehow both full systems, but part of the same curriculum. I know that sounds extremely McDojoish, but like I said before, this school comes highly recommended so I'm going to keep an open mind.

That actually might be a strong traditional program. You might get old school tkd instruction instead of the more modern sport evolution.

 

[Guestx]

That actually might be a strong traditional program. You might get old school tkd instruction instead of the more modern sport evolution.

I'm assuming they teach the Chang Hon forms. I can't imagine they teach the taeguks in a situation like that. I should find out more when I go next month and will report back.

 

[Jukai]

I'm assuming they teach the Chang Hon forms. I can't imagine they teach the taeguks in a situation like that. I should find out more when I go next month and will report back.

Careful, if they're affiliated with the NBL, this may also be a pure competition oriented school... since a combo of TKD kicks and Shotokan lunging punches are the idea mix to take gold at a supergrand.

 

[shinkyoku]

I'll have to look into Shinken Shobu as well.

Kyokushin Shinken Shobu is not exactly point karate though.
Basically it is knockdown karate (knockdown=kyokushin rules) but with thin gloves and punches to the head allowed. As well as elbows and grabbing.
You get points for knocking the opponent out, or downing him for a short time, but nothing for just hitting.
It is created by the "kyokushin-kan" faction of kyokushin, founder by Royama. He wanted to 1. recreate the sparring that kyokushin used before the knockdown rules was invented 2. do something about the lack of defense against facepunches that kyokushin guys often get as a bad habit.
They have held a few trial tournaments at world cups, with limited number of fighters, and are going to launch full world tournament with the new rules in a few months.

Here are a few clips from the trial tournaments.


The fighters are unused to facepunches and it shows (they are turning into headhunters and swings away wildly -which is interesting since more than a few of the test fighters have kickboxing merits, but apparently the smaller gloves makes a difference), but they are getting better.

 

[Guestx]

Kyokushin Shinken Shobu is not exactly point karate though.

I'm cool with that. I like a variety of formats and believe in the value of hard-hitting when appropriate.

You get points for knocking the opponent out, or downing him for a short time, but nothing for just hitting.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. On one hand, it encourages aggression. But on the other, it seems that if there are no knockdowns/knockouts then whoever lands the most blows should win.

It is created by the "kyokushin-kan" faction of kyokushin, founder by Royama. He wanted to 1. recreate the sparring that kyokushin used before the knockdown rules was invented 2. do something about the lack of defense against facepunches that kyokushin guys often get as a bad habit.

That's interesting, but I totally agree.

I haven't heard Kyokushin-kan. Can't you tell me more?

They have held a few trial tournaments at world cups, with limited number of fighters, and are going to launch full world tournament with the new rules in a few months.

I think it's a great direction for Kyokushin. If it would become the norm then my one real criticism of Kyokushin would crumble.

 

[shinkyoku]

I haven't heard Kyokushin-kan. Can't you tell me more?

Its a bit off topic, but ok. Basically it is a splinter organization that formed when Hatsuo Royama, one of the top oldtimers and top profile in the IKO1 (Matsui) faction of kyokushin, splintered off back in 2002/2003.
Depending on who you ask, the reason was either the result of a power struggle, or that Royama was dissatisfied with tournament fighting under strict rules dominating the development of IKO1 kyokushin, at the expepense of all other aspects of the style.
Royama has held a few challenge tournaments in china fighting top chinese Sanda guys (under sanda rules, with sanda judges -and ofcourse, sanda guys winning) and developing the shinken shobu rules.

 

[Irn Bru Freak]

No.

Point fighting is useless.