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Any Kungfu practioners that can compete in the UFC?

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by Ogata, Jan 4, 2015.

  1. pewpewpew Yellow Belt

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    Naw you'll never see that shit. Too many flaws.

    Too much necessary movements in kung fu. Good for confusion but that's about it.

    Weird stances that puts you unbalanced or unguarded when you allow grappling into the mix.

    Strikes that doesn't put a lot of body weight into it.

    Defense that relies on parrying or intercepting. Yeah right good luck trying to catch the punch of an athletic that trains 7 days a week to punch through your skull.
     
  2. MysticNinjaJay Banned Banned

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    Kung Fu = Chinese Martial Arts.

    San Shou certainly counts as Kung Fu. It's a combat sport that incorporates Chinese Martial Arts techniques. Cung Le studied Vietnamese Kung Fu and Tae Kwon Do along with wrestling. He entered San Shou because he liked the rules. He also learned techniques that are used in San Shou.

    That Bruce Lee quote is fake. People say it comes from Tao of Jeet Kune Do. I own and read the book. It's not there and I can't find a source for that quote. Boxing and Wrestling are certainly important for MMA but kicking is also very useful. You've got to be well-rounded. We all know that. There are no successful single stylists in MMA any more. Lyoto Machida represents Karate but he's not a pure Karateka.

    I don't think you can become a successful MMA fighter at your local Kwoon because they don't train for MMA. There are a variety of moves from Chinese Martial Arts that are useful. Cung Le especially made great use of the side kick which I'd like to see used more in MMA. Styles don't matter. It's how you train and what you learn.

    That being said I don't know of any legit (Roy Nelson doesn't count) Kung Fu practitioners that are successful in MMA. If Kung Fu means using a variety of flashy moves from Chinese Martial Arts then the closet fighter to a Kung Fu master is Cung Le. Hell Jon Jones is just as flashy. His "Look-See-Do" style was based off of him learning flashy moves from internet videos. He doesn't have a formal background in Chinese Martial Arts but he's got the flashy style.

    The Chinese have the Art of War competition and some interesting prospects from The Ultimate Fighter: China so maybe we'll see some more Chinese fighters in the UFC with San Shou backgrounds. If they rival Cung Le in their technique and style that's as close to Kung Fu as you're going to get.
     
  3. Alexandergreat3 In Fedor We Trust, amen™

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    https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Kung_fu_%28term%29.html

    Kung fu or gongfu or gung fu is a Chinese term often used in the west to refer to Chinese martial arts.[1] Its original meaning is somewhat different, referring to one's expertise in any skill achieved through hard work and practice, not necessarily martial. ​
    If we go by the definition of "Kung Fu" = "martial art," then yes, it is "Kung Fu."

    However, if we're referring to "Kung Fu" as in traditional Chinese Kung Fu styles (e.g. animal styles, Shaolin, Drunken boxing, etc.), then San Shou is not Kung Fu.

    San Shou is a simplified, modernized military combat system developed by the Communist Chinese Army with the help from Communist Soviet Union's combat Sambo coaches. It's a system where they combined kickboxing (Muay Thai) with some basic throws:

    http://www.sanshouuk.co.uk/history.html
    "The Soviet military and the creators of Sambo felt a sport form was needed which could be safely practiced on a regular basis. This would also incorporate modern advancements in sports medicine and training methodology. All of which taught to them under the guidance of a skilled coach.

    Under the tutelage of Soviet advisors, the Chinese endeavored to create a similar method of training their military forces. The program was perhaps more important to the Chinese who lacked an industrial base and access to most modern warfare technology. The Whampoa military instructors who studied the traditional martial art styles combined them with the modern training methods and created Sanshou and the decision was made to use a Kickboxing like format when practiced."​
    He also studied San Shou techniques, too, if I'm not mistaken. His leg catch/sweep is one example I can think of:

    [​IMG]


    I don't have Bruce Lee's book, so I can't say whether or not that quote came from there. But let's say that - for the sake of the discussion - that Bruce Lee did in fact say, "Someone who trains boxing and wrestling for one year would beat a martial artist of 20 years experience."

    Would he be wrong in your opinion?

    Or do you think he is spot on with that statement, judging by what we are seeing now in modern MMA at the highest level?

    I don't think Bruce Lee ever denied the importance of kicking. And as far as I know, Bruce Lee was the first and ONLY traditional martial artist who broke out of the rigidity of tradition and ethnocentric way of thinking and emphasized the importance of cross training and learn everything that is useful, regardless whether it is from Karate, Judo, boxing, wrestling, fencing, etc..

    You're right. There are no successful single stylists in MMA any more. However, that is not the same thing as saying that all styles are equally effective and important as bases in modern MMA.

    Standup striking:

    All MMA fighters must train kickboxing/boxing or they're going to get beaten in the standup and will never win a championship. (Even Machida's, Pettis' full time striking coaches are kickboxing coaches.)

    An MMA fighter can train only kickboxing/boxing for his standup and win championship. However, if an MMA fighter trains only Karate, TKD, or any other form of standup striking, he will not be able to compete against the top level fighters and win a championship.


    Standup/ground grappling:

    All MMA fighters must train wrestling or they're going to get tossed around and smothered on the ground, and they will never win a championship. (All current champions have excellent wrestling/wrestling defense)

    There is no substitute for wrestling when it comes to standup/ground grappling (non submission). If an MMA fighter trains only Judo, he won't get very far. On the other hand, if an MMA fighter trains only wrestling, he would still be able to win championship. Of course, it's best to train both. The point is one is fundamentally necessary (wrestling), and the other one is not (Judo).


    Ground/submission grappling:

    All MMA fighters must train BJJ for ground fighting, or they're going to get submitted.


    From what I have seen, there are usually some overlapping techniques across different martial arts. The side kick is a perfect example. It is found in karate, TKD, Kung Fu, Sambo, Capoeira, and many more.

    Is it useful because it's from Chinese Kung Fu, or Karate, or Capoeria? Or is it useful because, like Bruce Lee said, "humans have two arms and two legs," and there are only so many effective ways to punch and kick?

    I came from a TMA background (Shorin Ryu Karate, TKD, and Kung Fu), so it's my understanding that the word "styles" in TMAs has a different meaning than "styles" in, say, wrestling.

    For example, in Kung Fu, "styles" refers more to the form of the martial arts in question, how it looks - basically the focus is on its appearance. (e.g. different animal style Kung Fu). There is more emphasis on the aesthetic and beauty of their appearance rather than their practicality.

    On the other hand, in wrestling, there are "free style" wrestling and "Greco Roman" wrestling. When speaking about different "styles" of wrestling, the emphasis is on the practical application of different techniques. Freestyle uses leg takedowns, whereas Greco Roman focuses on the clinching of the upper torso for takedowns.

    So getting back to your original comment, "styles don't matter":

    If we're speaking about "styles" in terms of their aesthetic appearance in the many forms of Kung Fu, then styles don't matter (for real fighting).

    However, if we're speaking about "styles" in the practical sense, as in Freestyle wrestling vs Greco Roman wrestling, then yes, styles matter. If an MMA fighter trains Greco and not Freestyle, then he would be missing out on learning how to effectively use leg takedowns.


    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you kept mentioning Chinese martial arts, and it's my impression that, no offense, but you're stuck in the typical TMA mindset of "East vs. West."

    Jones is a big fan of Bruce Lee's "no style" philosophy.

    [​IMG]

    This is evident in the way he does unorthodox attacks, not for the sake to look pretty like a lot of Chinese martial arts, which focus on styles. Jone's attacks - e.g. spinning elbow, shoulder bump, kick to the thigh - are focused on being effective due to their unpredictability (or as Bruce Lee said, "be formless").

    Bruce Lee's martial art philosophy was to break away from rigid traditions and formalities (ie Chinese martial art tradition) and ultimately self limitation, by being open-minded in studying western boxing, wrestling, and everything else that he thought were effective for fighting, no matter where they came from, which was TOTALLY against Chinese martial art culture.

    Many of his fans (except Jones) don't realize this. Bruce Lee wasn't an advocate of Chinese (or any one single country's) martial arts. He was an advocate of MMA.
     
  4. Ibn Orange Belt

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    You know kung fu just means skill to a high degree, right? So all the top level guys are using kung fu.

    Also the human body can only move a certain number ways. So styles and such from different countries are basically cultural trappings.

    What you see in MMA is the distillation of techniques out of cultural garbage and to the essence of what techniques are most conducive to sports fighting. wheat from the chaff.

    Bruce Lee used this distillation by basically commandeering western MA Fencing, boxin g,wrestling, and mixing in daoist philosophy. Those who tout his Wing Chun skill have to realize he was a beginner in that system and came back to the US and either he or other people billed him as a master, so that was his base. Then getting away from cultural trappings he moved into western MA, because they are effect in sporting contests, thus can be practiced against resistant opponents in a safe matter.
     
  5. ithinktheymad Red Belt

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    There was one I believe he got cut.
     
  6. coolbreezer White Belt

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    Exactly but not just because of the rules also because of the fact that most kung-fu styles concentrate on forms and lose techniques .. not on fighting it self ..

    But people Like Jon Bones Jones are using kung fu without even knowing it or maybe he does and saw it in a movie .. all those side kicks front kicks oblique kicks Short elbows even saw him doing back fist,s palm strikes thats classic kung fu ..


    One of the first and few kicks in Wing chun kung fu is the oblique kick to the knee caps or body of your opponent oblique kick to the back of the knee as in a way of bringing him to the floor All classic kung fu stuff ..

    But as far as kung fu fighters fighting in the ufc i don,t think so they are not made for that most practitioners have a 9 to 5 job and are not pro fighters

    Like i said most of the stances they use are not good for modern day fighting
    some are able to use lose stuff from kung fu and mix it up with great mma :)

    i think thats the closest we will get into seeing kung fu in a mma fight
     
  7. coolbreezer White Belt

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    I agree on everything you said but to be clear yes he was a beginner in the kung fu style wing chun ..master Ip man only had him under his wings for a short time ..

    But Lee certainly had a base with wing chun in his own art Jeet Kun do he applied lots of wing chun stuff but he felt it was not complete and later improved it in a way he saw fit for him ..and his art jeet kun do !

    he then all ready was mixing things up :)
     
  8. devilfisted Brown Belt

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    Larkin is a Kung-fu guy.
     
  9. coolbreezer White Belt

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    You said it best (lol)
     
  10. sb413197 Red Belt

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    Maybe 3000 years ago when it was being employed in battle and the techniques were tested and modified to suit actual combat.

    We are hundreds of generations removed from reality at this point. There aren't many, if any, actual practicioners who know what works and doesn't left. That's why the "sport" arts you can actually test (like BJJ, muay thai etc) have stayed effective.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2015
  11. Black Paladin Funniest Sherdogger, P4P

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    From memory, he kept some principles of center line and trapping.
     
  12. Alexandergreat3 In Fedor We Trust, amen™

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    In my opinion, "cultural garbage" is an accurate (and funny) way of describing traditional martial art "styles" that came about simply because of culture and art, not because how proven they are in combat.

    You said it best by describing "styles" as cultural trappings. That's exactly what they are from my actual TMA experiences, and it's amazing how many people are still trapped in these rigid mindset.


    Well said.

    I have never been a fan of Bruce Lee through his films, but I have to say Bruce Lee was a genius and his thinking was WAY ahead of his time (like 50 years ahead). People (especially the ones in TMA circles) don't really understand him. They view him as a "Chinese Kung Fu master," but his martial art philosophy was MMA, and I believe he tried to free TMA people's minds through his work in Game of Death where he basically fought like an MMA fighter.
     
  13. Douwe Geluk White Belt

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    Well why should they? They have old traditions in which they practise for hundreds of years. They maybe do not have an ambition or need to show their art in a cage platform.

    Maybe they loose face, maybe their system does not work in a cage fight. Or maybe they are too proud or it might have other reasons.

    The Cage and UFC these days is merely for mma practitioners. Other styles have their own tournaments and do their own competition.

    lets enjoy that, and lets not ask every martial art art to proof itself all the time.

    If a Chinese kungfu fighter is ambitious they will enter the ring. If not then not.
     
  14. hurv Yellow Belt

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    Zabit trained in Wushu (sport kung fu) at the martial arts academy he attended as a kid. Tony Ferguson trains Wing Chun.
     
  15. MMAart Red Belt

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    Only San Shou has any chance of being competitive in MMA, but their practitioners will have to learn ground fighting, too.

    Other style of Kung Fu will not survive, because of their lack of grappling and ground game and striking (basically everything? lol).

    By the way, Karate, like any other standup fighting (e.g. boxing, muay Thai, etc.) cannot survive on its own in MMA without cross training. Therefore, I think it's unrealistic to expect any Kung Fu style to be able to survive on its own in MMA.
     
  16. Ogata Silver Belt

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    I made this thread almost 4 years ago bro!
     
  17. Swarthy Immortal Sorcerer Lo Pan Double Yellow Card

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    Monkey Style from the Southern provence of Wu-Dong.

    Sign me up Dana!!!
     
  18. YellowBanenoo Banned Banned

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    Lol if Wushu is kungfu, sweet and sour pork would be an authentic Chinese food.
     
  19. TheLastEmperorReurns Banned Banned

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  20. MMAart Red Belt

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    Sweet and sour pork is an authentic Chinese food, as long as it is not made in Panda Express.
     

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