Any experience with shoulder injuries?

[Zen Machine]

I have seen the doc. X-ray came back clear. I just know from years of lurking that there are some pretty clued up guys in here.

I was training jiu jitsu a while back (Im a purple belt under Roger Gracie) and got swept. I landed pretty hard on my right shoulder which made a crunching sound and felt immediately heavy. It was very sore and stiff for about 2 weeks, but is gradually feeling stronger and movement is returning. I still cant sleep on it and stretching accross my own body hurts.

Anyhow. Just tonight I noticed a small indentation on the back of my injured shoulder. I have included a picture of a random guys back and circled roughly were the dent is.

Any ideas? Appreciate it guys.

 

[miaou]

Shoulder x-rays don't show much. What was doc's diagnosis and instructions?

If you still have issues with your shoulder after resting it for a couple of weeks, it's time to visit an ortho (preferably a sports doc). He will do a clinical examination and will most probably have you do an MRI.

 

[Mumrik]

Yeah, the X-rays would tell a very small part of the story. Did you get an ultrasound?

 

[Zen Machine]

My doctor basically just told me "There are no breaks, go home". I asked for an MRI and he said there was no need because I have full motion. Maybe I should pursuit it?

 

[The_Crow]

Yeah, the X-rays would tell a very small part of the story. Did you get an ultrasound?

^this

You need an ultrasound to check your rotator cuff and all the small tendons & ligaments of the shoulder joint. Its a complicated joint & lots of things can get damaged.

Shoulder injuries are a bitch, I got a torn rotator cuff thanks to a shoulder dislocation back in the late 90's which took a good 18 months to heal to a point where I could really start training again, although some bad medical advice may have held me back. Infact I couldnt even do any running for about 4 months.

I just developed a slight tear in my other shoulder about 2 months ago so Im currently rehabbing that and its not much fun.

BTW - DO NOT do accross the body stretches or sleep on the injured shoulder, both could be making things a hell of a lot worse. Even after my shoulder healed I was told to not do certain accross the body stretches at all.

 

[The_Crow]

My doctor basically just told me "There are no breaks, go home". I asked for an MRI and he said there was no need because I have full motion. Maybe I should pursuit it?

How many weeks since the initial injury occurred ? and is the area still swollen ? or does it swell up ? Do you have full Range of motion without pain ? can you for example stand in a doorway arms at your side then move your hands outward until your knuckles are against the doorframe & push against it without pain in the injured shoulder ? Do you get pain from unguarded movement ?

Theres no point doing an ultrasound if the area is still swollen up which is usually why they make you wait a few weeks. If its still swollen start using anti inflams (tablets & gel/cream) and hitting it with ice if you havent already.

Definitely push for at least an Ultrasound IMHO, its fairly fast, not hugely expensive and can tell you a lot.

 

[miaou]

My doctor basically just told me "There are no breaks, go home". I asked for an MRI and he said there was no need because I have full motion. Maybe I should pursuit it?

Did he do a clinical examination of the shoulder, besides looking at the x-rays?

Having a full range of motion and having a pain-free full range of motion (as well as pain-free ROM when external resistance is applied) are two very different things.

In any case, if after 15-20 days of rest the shoulder is still painful, then you obviously need to reassess the condition.

 

[The_Crow]

Did he do a clinical examination of the shoulder, besides looking at the x-rays?

Having a full range of motion and having a pain-free full range of motion (as well as pain-free ROM when external resistance is applied) are two very different things.

In any case, if after 15-20 days of rest the shoulder is still painful, then you obviously need to reassess the condition.

yeah pain free RoM under load (doorframe test I suggested) should have been checked and of course he should have been sent home and told to keep an eye on his unguarded range of movement (unguarded as in when your not thinking about actively engaging the shoulder, ie: putting on a shirt, drying off after a shower, driving etc.) and to come back if there was any pinching/soreness/looseness during unguarded movement.

 

[flak]

This sounds similar to something that happened to me, almost 30 years ago.

I was studying karate like crazy, and during a class I attempted a no-hands forward roll and ended up landing on my left shoulder -- crunching sensation, immediate stiffness and pain that went away gradually over a couple of weeks.

Long story short, I had most likely sustained a total separation (ie. torn clean through, all the way across) or one of the two sets of ligaments that hold the collarbone to the shoulder blade.

The remaining set worked just fine until a few months later when I fell clumsily after being thrown by a classmate who knew some judo. I landed on my left shoulder again and tore the other set of ligaments clean through.

I had a prosthetic ligament put in circa late 1983 and it's been fine ever since. So there is basically a happy ending to my story. I did a lot more karate, plus a smattering of other MAs, and now I lift weights.

For you, I would definitely seek out someone who's capable of diagnosing ligament damage and ask them to assess you. A sports physician, ie. an orthopedic surgeon with an M.D. degree, is probably your best bet.

It sounds like there's a possibility of ligament damage, but only a qualified person can say.

 

[usmctanker242]

Yeah, X-Ray = shit with shoulder injury. I had a separated A/C joint, class 3 plus, when I was in the Marine Corps. The X-Ray didn't show any broken bone, so I was given 2 weeks of "light duty" and some Tylenol. 3 months later, when it didn't get any better, my clavicle was actually poking up through my skin. Long story short, I spent 8 months with a separated, arthritic joint, and now I'm semi-disabled for the rest of my life. If it was a bad slam, I'd fork out the money, and get an MRI, that way they can see what's actually wrong with your muscles/joints. If you have an indentation, it's probably a sign of bone travel/movement due to the weakened ligaments. Get that shit checked out man! Good luck

 

[usmctanker242]

My doctor basically just told me "There are no breaks, go home". I asked for an MRI and he said there was no need because I have full motion. Maybe I should pursuit it?

Yeah man, my "doctor" told me the same thing. Now, 2 years later, I can't pick up anything more than 10 Lbs with my left arm. If they had done the proper exams, they could have fixed my shoulder before it spun out of control. Seriously, if it still hurts, your movement is limited, get a second opinion. An MRI is what saved me from being totally jacked up the rest of my life, so if it's worth your time / $, I would recommend it.

 

[PowerHungry]

Personally, I've had two shoulder injuries: a strained labrum and bursitis as recently as a month ago. They can come from any number of things such as poor posture, not stretching enough, too much pressing and not enough pulling in your routine, etc. General throwing motions can aggravate your shoulder over time even with proper stretching and treatment. The entire shoulder area including the rotator cuff is a tricky bastard.

Most shoulder injuries can be solved with the obvious which are stopping any sort of pressing movements or behind the head movements (OH or bench), stopping throwing motions such as tennis, baseball, sparring, etc. and applying ice to reduce swelling and heat to reduce inflammation and some pain medication such as NSAIDS.

In my experience, trying to stretch your way out of an injury only worsens it. I wouldn't try to self-treat.

Go see him. He'll do some PNF stretches similar to what you already are talking about to test your ROM. He'll probably hook you up to a machine that sends eletrical impulses directly to the area. He'll give you a list of stretchs or movements that are OK to do until you are healed and you have full ROM again. He'll probably tell you to work on keeping your lats in your back pocket to prevent anterior slippage. Basically, focus on keeping good posture. Also, not to sleep on that arm. If it's nothing serious, you should be good to go in a couple of weeks. The longer you try to work through it now though, the longer you'll have to lay off training later.

 

[EricBfromIowa]

I have had them all, and they all sucked. good luck.

 

[Mumrik]

My doctor basically just told me "There are no breaks, go home". I asked for an MRI and he said there was no need because I have full motion. Maybe I should pursuit it?

The MRI costs quite a bit, so depending on how things work over there you might either get quite a bill or have to be quite persuasive to get it. I basically had to force them to give me one for my back (turns out that was a good idea).

The ultrasound on the other hand doesn't cost shit so it should be very easy to get. Perhaps just ask for it specifically so it is clear to the doctor that you know what you want.

 

[Zen Machine]

Thanks guys. Really helpul. I have a GP appointment for Tuesday. I'll keep you posted!

 

[Zen Machine]

Well, I seen the doc. He said the dent is not good (6 years of mecical school fee's didnt go to waste then) and has referred me for an MRI. He said its likely to be at least 3 months unless I want to pay

 

[Mumrik]

Both the 3 months and the lack of advice on whether or not to train sounds strange. Without being an expert I'd still say that it sounds like it would have been a good idea to give you an ultrasound in the meantime if the wait is going to be that long. If he had a suspicion I'd think they'd be able to check it out.

 

[Zen Machine]

Both the 3 months and the lack of advice on whether or not to train sounds strange. Without being an expert I'd still say that it sounds like it would have been a good idea to give you an ultrasound in the meantime if the wait is going to be that long. If he had a suspicion I'd think they'd be able to check it out.

Unfortunately this is the NHS for you. His opinion was basically - I can work, drive etc so I'm low priority.

 

[Mumrik]

I feel for you. It is terribly frustrating not to know exactly what is wrong and what you should and shouldn't be doing.

 

[usmctanker242]

Yeah, my injury healed the wrong way after it was left for so long, which made the surgery much more extensive in the end. My wife is from England, so I'm familiar with NHS, but if you can afford the 400, it could save you from potentially being a cripple. Good luck either way man, hope you're alright.