Planet Earth? [YT]JQ0MQbu3ofM[/YT] Go watch the first fight, all that big G'nP came from Fedor using great grip breaks and posture- it wasn't traditional BJJ "pass guard and mount", but he used very effective and very subtle grappling to control position and get the necessary posture to deliver those punishing strikes. [Hm "control", "posture", "grip breaks"...almost sounds like what you're supposed to do in BJJ, no?] The title of [the other] thread is "best mma grapplers?", not "who has the best jiu jitsu/submission game in mma?" Fedor's grappling was excellent IN MMA,for MMA purposes. If he only beat Nog because of striking [poster said Fedor didn't out-grapple Nog], why didn't other guys with powerful striking bash in Nog's skull from inside his guard? Because they didn't have the intricate and subtle grappling chops to negate Nog's grips, sweeps, and sub attempts. Could he beat Nog in a straight Jiu Jitsu match? Nope. Could he beat Randleman in a straight wrestling match? Nope. Could he beat Semy Shilt in a k1 bout for that matter? Nope. But he didn't have to, because he faced them in MMA. He was able to blend his skills as per the ruleset and beat everyone for a decade. This [other thread saying Fedor wasn't that good of a grappler and that Toquinho only has a "decent" leg lock game] thread is seriously ridiculous. Toquinho (Paul Harris) makes it to the ADCC finals by leg locking everyone including Lovato JR (not to mention winning the Brazilian trials years earlier as a freaking PURPLE BELT and tapping out Romulo Barral!), but has a "decent leg lock game" [according to a poster]...Fedor racks up a ton of submission wins and Sambo world championships (mostly BY GRAPPLING, by the way_ for 10 years but is, ahem: "not that good of a grappler." [according to a poster] Who da fuck are these mythical "really good grapplers" in MMA then? Kron and Roger are Gods and then everyone else below them is decent/ok/average? How do you people seriously just discredit years worth of professional grappling wins at the highest level of two sports? ADCC isn't good enough for you? Who does Palhares have to submit to reach "pretty good" status at leg locks? Sorry Fedor armbars lots of people, what a poor grappler he is, relying on that one move...nevermind his takedowns, reversals, grip breaking from guard and posture...(none of that counts as grappling anyways, right?) Sorry Fedor lost to a multiple time BJJ world champion and the current UFC Interim Champ who has one of the best submission games in MMA, he should hang his head in shame for that dud. Ditto on being out-grappled by Arona, a total bum who has never had a SINGLE point scored against him in ADCC against other bums like JJ Machado, Comprido, and Saulo Ribeiro... Sorry Toquinho takes lots of people down, shame on his opponents for not having better TDD. [poster said Paul Harris only takes people down cuz they have bad TDD] Sorry he keeps winning MMA fights with leg locks, his career is clearly on a downward spiral. Sorry his heel hook failed him once or twice, he should probably stop trying to do them them. Obviously if you can't finish a move 110% of the time it means you're not that good at it. Sorry Fedor did Combat Sambo [poster discredits combat sambo as a grappling art], he must have just been striking people and totally wasn't taking them down, controlling them, and submitting them (aka "grappling")...OH WAIT [YT]W81APUPoZAo[/YT] I don't understand how you people define a "good grappler" in MMA...apparently takedowns don't count for much, submitting people doesn't count for much...what am I missing here? Apparently submitting Romulo Barral and Rafael Lovato Jr don't count for much either. Kron and Roger have the prestigious lineage and credentials...but even Roger lost to Tim Kennedy, AND was even controlled on the ground , I guess he's not actually that good of a grappler, right, right?