An interesting piece of info:

fat_wilhelm

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I stumbled upon this article by Jerry Brainum a couple weeks ago. Of special interest to me was the portion about human mothers' milk and how it differs from cows' milk (pasted below). Typically, I've been mixing my casein and whey together in a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio because of what we know about milk protein isolate. As I guess I should have expected, however, milk protein isolate for one animal does not equal milk protein isolate for another. Lately, I've been adjusting my ratios to match what is discussed in the article more closely. Of course, I change the ratio for specific times (i.e. pre-bed), but the bulk of my protein supplementation is now roughly at 50/50.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/im1.htm

Q: Mother's milk is often called the ideal protein, but are the protein proportions in mother's milk ideal for active, athletic adults?

A: Human mother's milk contains a balance of 50 to 60 percent whey protein-to-40 to 50 percent casein protein. That's a far different balance from what you find in cow's milk, which is about 80 percent casein and 20 percent whey protein.

Also, the types of proteins present in the two milks are significantly different. Human mother's milk contains as much as 17 percent lactoferrin, while cow's milk contains about 1 percent lactoferrin.

The dominant whey protein fraction in human mother's milk is alpha-lactalbumin, while the dominant whey protein fraction in cow's milk is beta-lactoglobulin. Human mother's milk doesn't contain any beta-lactoglobulin, a highly allergenic protein in humans compared to alpha-lactalbumin.

Nature doesn't do anything by chance, and the high content of lactoferrin found in mother's milk is there for a reason. Among other properties lactoferrin has antiviral activity and is a potent immune system booster. That's clearly advantageous for newborn humans, who lack full immune system function. From an athletic standpoint, lactoferrin may reduce tissue regrowth time. Some studies have shown that it may assist in increasing tissue regrowth.

Lactoferrin is one reason that you can't duplicate mother's milk. The cost of purified lactoferrin is prohibitively expensive. Another factor making it difficult to duplicate mother's milk is the beta-lactoglobulin content of cow's whey protein. Infant formula companies have experienced considerable difficulty in making efficacious products from cow's milk protein. In order to make the formula less allergenic to human infants, they usually hydrolyze the whey protein to a high degree. If the beta-lactoglobulin is sufficiently hydrolyzed, its allergenicity in humans is decreased.

It may be difficult to exactly duplicate human mother's milk, but one can at least try to achieve the proper whey-to-casein ratio. It's only logical to conclude that if nature makes mother's milk 50 percent whey protein-to-50 percent casein, that ratio is probably best for growing humans. Nature didn't make mother's milk from 100 percent whey protein or 90 percent casein. It seems obvious that growing humans should thrive on the natural balance of whey protein and casein that's found in mother's milk.​
 
thanks for the post i was actually wondering what the break down of the protein in milk was. I knew it contained casien but not that it was roughly 80%
 
fat_wilhelm said:
I stumbled upon this article by Jerry Brainum a couple weeks ago. Of special interest to me was the portion about human mothers' milk and how it differs from cows' milk (pasted below). Typically, I've been mixing my casein and whey together in a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio because of what we know about milk protein isolate. As I guess I should have expected, however, milk protein isolate for one animal does not equal milk protein isolate for another. Lately, I've been adjusting my ratios to match what is discussed in the article more closely. Of course, I change the ratio for specific times (i.e. pre-bed), but the bulk of my protein supplementation is now roughly at 50/50.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/im1.htm

Q: Mother's milk is often called the ideal protein, but are the protein proportions in mother's milk ideal for active, athletic adults?

A: Human mother's milk contains a balance of 50 to 60 percent whey protein-to-40 to 50 percent casein protein. That's a far different balance from what you find in cow's milk, which is about 80 percent casein and 20 percent whey protein.

Also, the types of proteins present in the two milks are significantly different. Human mother's milk contains as much as 17 percent lactoferrin, while cow's milk contains about 1 percent lactoferrin.

The dominant whey protein fraction in human mother's milk is alpha-lactalbumin, while the dominant whey protein fraction in cow's milk is beta-lactoglobulin. Human mother's milk doesn't contain any beta-lactoglobulin, a highly allergenic protein in humans compared to alpha-lactalbumin.

Nature doesn't do anything by chance, and the high content of lactoferrin found in mother's milk is there for a reason. Among other properties lactoferrin has antiviral activity and is a potent immune system booster. That's clearly advantageous for newborn humans, who lack full immune system function. From an athletic standpoint, lactoferrin may reduce tissue regrowth time. Some studies have shown that it may assist in increasing tissue regrowth.

Lactoferrin is one reason that you can't duplicate mother's milk. The cost of purified lactoferrin is prohibitively expensive. Another factor making it difficult to duplicate mother's milk is the beta-lactoglobulin content of cow's whey protein. Infant formula companies have experienced considerable difficulty in making efficacious products from cow's milk protein. In order to make the formula less allergenic to human infants, they usually hydrolyze the whey protein to a high degree. If the beta-lactoglobulin is sufficiently hydrolyzed, its allergenicity in humans is decreased.

It may be difficult to exactly duplicate human mother's milk, but one can at least try to achieve the proper whey-to-casein ratio. It's only logical to conclude that if nature makes mother's milk 50 percent whey protein-to-50 percent casein, that ratio is probably best for growing humans. Nature didn't make mother's milk from 100 percent whey protein or 90 percent casein. It seems obvious that growing humans should thrive on the natural balance of whey protein and casein that's found in mother's milk.​

Nature isn't always right. We still have an appendix, for example. I hate this logical fallacy especially among health-food freaks. We "naturally" stop drinking human milk long before maturity, so is there a reason for that?

That said, I think that is an interesting story otherwise. I wonder if whey should be added to baby milk. I also am interested to see whether the properties of human milk may or may not be effective after maturity.
 
Frodo said:
Nature isn't always right. We still have an appendix, for example. I hate this logical fallacy especially among health-food freaks. We "naturally" stop drinking human milk long before maturity, so is there a reason for that?

That said, I think that is an interesting story otherwise. I wonder if whey should be added to baby milk. I also am interested to see whether the properties of human milk may or may not be effective after maturity.

True, but if you're going to go human nature vs. cow nature as your two options, I'd probably go human. It's all theory, of course.
 
fat_wilhelm said:
It's only logical to conclude that if nature makes mother's milk 50 percent whey protein-to-50 percent casein, that ratio is probably best for growing humans. Nature didn't make mother's milk from 100 percent whey protein or 90 percent casein. It seems obvious that growing humans should thrive on the natural balance of whey protein and casein that's found in mother's milk.​

Makes good sense to me. Great article!
 
It also seems obvious that the speed of light should follow the laws of addition of velocities, but it doesn't. Falling back on "obvious" conclusions is falling back on lazy thinking.
 
Frodo said:
It also seems obvious that the speed of light should follow the laws of addition of velocities, but it doesn't. Falling back on "obvious" conclusions is falling back on lazy thinking.

What point are you arguing exactly? I don't think that taking the trouble to actually research the differences between cows' milk and humans' milk constitutes lazy thinking. Without conducting your own experiments w/ zillions of variable combinations, you've got to form conclusions of some sort. That or do nothing, I guess.
 
On a related note, I talked to a Cytosport customer service rep the other day. While she didn't know for certain, she THINKS Muscle Milk (which claims to replicate mother's milk) has a 60/40 casein/whey ratio. Food for thought.
 
It seem's fatty has a fettish for mothers, and thier milk...??



On a more debatable note, one could also argue that human mother's naturally stop producing thier milk after time, not constantly until menopause. Therefore, couldn't ingesting human mothers milk somehow be more detrimental than benifical? Until i see realistic studies being conducted of fully matured humans drinking human mother's milk as a supplement, I'll stick to a casin at bed time and whey isolate during the day. (along with your naturral whole food protein.)
 
Frodo said:
I'm feeling really pedantic today. Sorry.

No need to apologize, Frodo. I certainly don't know everything, nor does the dude who wrote the article, I'm sure. Just something to think about.

XTrainer said:
On a related note, I talked to a Cytosport customer service rep the other day. While she didn't know for certain, she THINKS Muscle Milk (which claims to replicate mother's milk) has a 60/40 casein/whey ratio. Food for thought.

Yeah, I wondered about that. I always heard that MM was casein dominant, but never knew how much so.

jk3004 said:
It seem's fatty has a fettish for mothers, and thier milk...??

duh... who doesn't.
 
Yeah, I've seen this before. Back when I first came on, Coach D dragged out this Brink article to support WPC's over WPI's because most WPC's retained more IGF growth factors and Immunglobins in proportion to Beta-Lac. It's good to know in theory, but if you're not showing any kind of digestive stress, you're probably not experiencing an allergic reaction.

So it's good to know, but 50/50 won't change your world, and that's just gonna make things more expensive. It's a lot cheaper to just get a milk protein isolate than to buy Micellar Casein and Whey Isolate separately, then mix them together in an 80:20 ratio, and that's exactly what you're getting with the MPI.

Besides, I take to heart what Vandelay posted that Lowery said once: it's not gonna move the earth what protein you drink. It's getting enough and getting to the gym that makes gains.

So if you're heart's set on the Alpha-Lac, get your girlfriend pregnant and suck on her tits.
 
So if you're heart's set on the Alpha-Lac, get your girlfriend pregnant and suck on her tits.

That's reason enough to have a heart set on anything.

Well, save for those pussy-ass males who run away screaming from Fatherhood, but that's another rant for another day.

What I wonder is if milk is essential at all really. Being a "growing" human doesn't necessarily stop. Anyone attempting to make their body more "athletic" is growing to some degree. So arguing that we stop getting milk, or that females stop producing it on that basis isn't really valid. The human body is in a constant state of metamorphasis of some sort typically. Nutrients are needed to facilitate, and that's that.

Most other animals (who don't question their own instincs, unlike us, which is something I just LOVE *sarcasm*) just take to getting their protein from the food they kill. Other carnivores and omnivores that is. I suppose they could also supplement with milk and it'd be viable nutritionally, the ones who will drink surely do happily. But milk even gives cats diarrhea.

However, there is also the question of the domestication of cows and also the human digestive system. Not to mention the things said to be detrimental to the health of human babies who are given bovine milk as a replacement for human milk. As more and more people simply cannot tolerate lactic acid, and more and more health problems boom from the overconsumption of dairy, debates like this are going to be a lot more plentiful until people learn how to properly maintain their individual body. Or die, whichever comes first.
 
King Kabuki said:
As more and more people simply cannot tolerate lactic acid, and more and more health problems boom from the overconsumption of dairy, debates like this are going to be a lot more plentiful until people learn how to properly maintain their individual body. Or die, whichever comes first.

I'll take death for 500, Alex.
 
I always wondered why I was a beast in the weightroom. I guess being breastfed until I was 16 really helped.
 
Madmick said:
Besides, I take to heart what Vandelay posted that Lowery said once: it's not gonna move the earth what protein you drink. It's getting enough and getting to the gym that makes gains.

True, but I've already been doing that for sixteen years and have reached a point where I like to experiment w/ my nutrition for maximum benefit.

Madmick said:
So if you're heart's set on the Alpha-Lac, get your girlfriend pregnant and suck on her tits.

My wife and I have a six week old little girl, actually, but I'm sure as hell not going to drink her milk...
 
King Kabuki said:
Most other animals (who don't question their own instincs, unlike us, which is something I just LOVE *sarcasm*) just take to getting their protein from the food they kill. Other carnivores and omnivores that is. I suppose they could also supplement with milk and it'd be viable nutritionally, the ones who will drink surely do happily. But milk even gives cats diarrhea.

Best point yet. I think a lot of what we "should do" could easily be taken from that which our non-instinct fearing animal counterparts already do.
 
fat_wilhelm said:
True, but I've already been doing that for sixteen years and have reached a point where I like to experiment w/ my nutrition for maximum benefit.
I wouldn't begrudge you that.

But I'm voicing some concern for your pocketbook. Whatever ratio you choose, you're still going to be using proteins derived from cow's milk, so you won't be getting alpha-lac.

But experimentation with a sound strategy is always good. Tell us if you notice a difference.
 
An interesting tidbit: It's pretty well known that people from Japan are on average shorter than those from the U.S. Since adopting a more Western diet, which includes cow's milk (and all the hormones in it), and meat and others, average Japanese height is now getting closer to the average in the U.S.

They still have a bit more to go however. It's a bit ironic too, since I read somewhere that about 90% of Asians are lactose intolerant.
 
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