Americans please explain BLM to Europeans

[Handsomebwonderfull]

That's not what people are saying, you just don't listen. Those other races weren't sabotaged and hated to the same extent blacks and native americans were. Yes, there isn't nearly as much racism NOW. That doesn't magically undo the effects of hundreds of years of racism, why would it? Was Obama raised in a ghetto? No, he was raised in an upper middle class environment? Oh ok, that's not the same thing then is it?


The point is these neighborhoods are still suffering the effects of previous generations of racism. Literally nobody rational is saying America in 2016 is still overtly racist. People like you act as if these neighborhoods just became like this yesterday, and all of their own accord.

So We agree racism isn't keeping blacks down then?

 

[Mike]

Amen mike it sounds like we might have a lot in common in the areas we grew up in and the things weve seen. Your not from Detroit by chance are you ? Hoods a bleak place folks who got no hope tend to live very hard. Even good people get swallowed up by it just living there every day. How normal of a life can you have when everyone you know is a dealer a junkie a whore or some other kind of criminal

You and I both know that if you claw fight and stop talking to everybody you used to know you might make it out of there but Im with you that most folks just dont see it. I still think about a lot of the hoods I used to know and the times we had but you just cant have folks like that in your life and go anywhere

Ive been out almost 5 years and I still have to fight my brain out of thinking hood a lot of the time.

Its this weird thing where I agree with a lot of what blm says and that we need to rebuild our impoverished areas instead of waging war in them but I sometimes hate a lot of the language they use. If I wrote a biography but included no pics im almost positive anyone reading it would think I was black. I sometimes feel like instead of seeing me as someone who is a lot like them and understands and sympathizes that Im being yelled at for being white. Does that make sense ? The ideas I wish to express are often larger than my ability to express them

I grew up in socal, and then Washington state. I think BLM has good points to make, but the way they're going about it is all wrong and outs people on the defensive. Black people sure aren't the only people living in poverty, or who have faced discrimination. At this point most of the problems that the black community faces are coming from within the black community. They're too focused on having someone to yell at and having a chip on their shoulder and playing the victim card.



I've always gotten along better with people that also came from poverty, regardless of their race. They understand the struggle people at the bottom are going through. Black people need to learn other people on the bottom are their allies and friends. We all have the same goals. I get why they are like this though. When you grow up in a community of only your race feeling like everything bad is happening purely to people of your skin color, you develop the negative attitude they have. It's super counterproductive though.

 

[Mike]

So We agree racism isn't keeping blacks down then?

Not at this point no. Anyone of any color can do whatever they want in this country. It's the institutionalized attitude of failure holding black people back. Like you said we have a black president, black doctors, lawyers, ceos, inventors, you name it. We need to go into these neighborhoods and make THEM see that. You have people growing up in an area where nobody ever succeeds. The few that do move far the fuck away asap. My only point has been these neighborhoods didn't get like this on their own. Not super interested in assigning blame though. More interested in seeing people realize these areas need more help to improve. They're not going to pull out of it on their own.

 

[Handsomebwonderfull]

Not at this point no. Anyone of any color can do whatever they want in this country. It's the institutionalized attitude of failure holding black people back. Like you said we have a black president, black doctors, lawyers, ceos, inventors, you name it. We need to go into these neighborhoods and make THEM see that. You have people growing up in an area where nobody ever succeeds. The few that do move far the fuck away asap. My only point has been these neighborhoods didn't get like this on their own. Not super interested in assigning blame though. More interested in seeing people realize these areas need more help to improve. They're not going to pull out of it on their own.

Ahh. Well I'm a big supporter of universe education and universal heathcare. So the slight difference I have with you is blacks don't get special attention, but we need to give everyone a decent shot. I thought you were like that racist bastard fork foot

 

[panamaican]

Not at this point no. Anyone of any color can do whatever they want in this country. It's the institutionalized attitude of failure holding black people back. Like you said we have a black president, black doctors, lawyers, ceos, inventors, you name it. We need to go into these neighborhoods and make THEM see that. You have people growing up in an area where nobody ever succeeds. The few that do move far the fuck away asap. My only point has been these neighborhoods didn't get like this on their own. Not super interested in assigning blame though. More interested in seeing people realize these areas need more help to improve. They're not going to pull out of it on their own.

The problem with explaining the historical impact of segregation and racism on black America is varied depending on who you're speaking with.

Some people simply have no idea of the actual effects of racism on black America in this country. They think it was just water fountains and bus seats. The whole separate but equal thing. They're not aware of the effects that have real long term impact. The inability to attend college. The inability to buy homes. The inability to join the union. Those are the things that leave a community economically behind it's counterparts for decades.

Some people make the continuous mistake of comparing poor white America with black America as a whole. The very comparison sort of underscores the point but they don't see it. If you asked them if being born rich provides an advantage over being born poor (the advantage of inheritance being part of that), most would acknowledge that to be true. But they fail to apply that to the difference between black and white America of the mid-century. That, comparatively, black America was poor and all of white America was middle class and better.

Essentially, the problem just reverts back to a failure to really understand economics and long term economic effects. Every economist worth his salt will say that the American middle class was built on homeownership and high wage, low skill, union manufacturing jobs. Obviously, people who didn't have access to homeownership, those unions or equal access to college would lag behind those people who had access. In a race neutral conversation, no one argues against it. But when you apply those economic impacts in the context of intentional racial discrimination, people suddenly stop supporting economics.

And it's understandable, if racism's impact can last more than a generation then the problems with black America can be traced to that. But then what's poor white America's excuse for still being poor? It's far preferable to assign the difference to general character/motivation differences. It's like being in a race with a handicapped person. If you're barely outperforming him, you feel pretty bad. But if you can argue that his handicap isn't real or doesn't impact his running then beating him still has some meaning. So poor America needs black America's problems to be primarily tied to their character so that outperforming black America isn't like beating a handicapped kid in a foot race.

 

[Mike]

The problem with explaining the historical impact of segregation and racism on black America is varied depending on who you're speaking with.

Some people simply have no idea of the actual effects of racism on black America in this country. They think it was just water fountains and bus seats. The whole separate but equal thing. They're not aware of the effects that have real long term impact. The inability to attend college. The inability to buy homes. The inability to join the union. Those are the things that leave a community economically behind it's counterparts for decades.

Some people make the continuous mistake of comparing poor white America with black America as a whole. The very comparison sort of underscores the point but they don't see it. If you asked them if being born rich provides an advantage over being born poor (the advantage of inheritance being part of that), most would acknowledge that to be true. But they fail to apply that to the difference between black and white America of the mid-century. That, comparatively, black America was poor and all of white America was middle class and better.

Essentially, the problem just reverts back to a failure to really understand economics and long term economic effects. Every economist worth his salt will say that the American middle class was built on homeownership and high wage, low skill, union manufacturing jobs. Obviously, people who didn't have access to homeownership, those unions or equal access to college would lag behind those people who had access. In a race neutral conversation, no one argues against it. But when you apply those economic impacts in the context of intentional racial discrimination, people suddenly stop supporting economics.

And it's understandable, if racism's impact can last more than a generation then the problems with black America can be traced to that. But then what's poor white America's excuse for still being poor? It's far preferable to assign the difference to general character/motivation differences. It's like being in a race with a handicapped person. If you're barely outperforming him, you feel pretty bad. But if you can argue that his handicap isn't real or doesn't impact his running then beating him still has some meaning. So poor America needs black America's problems to be primarily tied to their character so that outperforming black America isn't like beating a handicapped kid in a foot race.

Well said, as usual you're better at putting this into words than I am. I think a lot of it is no matter how you explain it, white people take it personally as if we're blaming white people for these problems in the present. All of this was set in motion long before any of us were born, obviously it's not the current generations fault. I don't understand the refusal to understand that events in the past effect the present. Any sociology or psychology class can tell you that. It's like people are so caught up in the old school "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" ideology that they don't understand how people actually function. Of course if you artificially place people at a disadvantage for generations that's going to have an effect on the community.

 

[Mike]

Ahh. Well I'm a big supporter of universe education and universal heathcare. So the slight difference I have with you is blacks don't get special attention, but we need to give everyone a decent shot. I thought you were like that racist bastard fork foot

As you can see from the conversation between Pan and I, my main point in these conversations is tht the black community didn't deteriorate all on its own, and you can't really blame them for needing some extra resource to deal with the problems. That's not really the same thing as saying every problem black people have today is caused by racism. I wouldn't bring it up if so many people didn't drop into these threads to claim the issue is black people are just savages, and there's no history behind what's going on in their communities.


As far as Forkfoot goes, he means well but can't really find any middle ground. Everything is one extreme or the other with him.

Black people that blame every single problem in their life on white people are wrong. White people that act as if the decay in black neighborhoods was entirely caused by black people are wrong. The truth is in the middle. The black community needs help, and they need to focus on trying to improve their own communities instead of finding people to blame.

 

[panamaican]

Well said, as usual you're better at putting this into words than I am. I think a lot of it is no matter how you explain it, white people take it personally as if we're blaming white people for these problems in the present. All of this was set in motion long before any of us were born, obviously it's not the current generations fault. I don't understand the refusal to understand that events in the past effect the present. Any sociology or psychology class can tell you that. It's like people are so caught up in the old school "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" ideology that they don't understand how people actually function. Of course if you artificially place people at a disadvantage for generations that's going to have an effect on the community.

I think "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" is a fair ideology to apply to black America...as long as you can acknowledge that black America isn't pulling itself up from the same place as poor white America.

 

[Mike]

I think "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" is a fair ideology to apply to black America...as long as you can acknowledge that black America isn't pulling itself up from the same place as poor white America.

True, I certainly don't think constantly looking for someone to be pissed off at is helpful. I don't think they're going to pull themselves out without extra help, and I don't think extra help is coming. So we'll continue to see the best, brightst, and luckiest make it out.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

Excellent Article

The "Black Lives Matter" Slogan Ignores Self-Destructive Behavior

the virtuous goal of promoting the perceived value of black lives in the manner now demanded by radical community activists is tragically misguided.

Activism advocating that black lives matter could have much more moral authority, and could be taken much more seriously, if it focused on actions devaluing black lives. These have very little to do with white cops and everything to do with self-destructive black behavior.

those claiming black lives matter fixate on Michael Brown and Eric Garner while virtually ignoring the thousands of black-on-black murder victims who remain largely nameless and faceless except to their loved ones.

Combining the black victims of abortion and black-on-black homicides, we are facing an assault on black lives that has nothing to do with racist, white cops.

I believe black lives matter. It's more than an Internet hashtag to me. But black lives should matter to black folk at least as much as they matter to others. Black lives have to matter just as much when blacks take them.

-Derryck Green

 

[kahiljabroni]

First u have to understand that in the US its very trendy to be a victim of something or someone. So a bunch of brats who grew up more fortunate than 99% of humans throughout history and never experienced real bigotry blame their shitty lives on whitey. Public schools and universities reinforce it by constantly reinforcing their victimhood.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

First u have to understand that in the US its very trendy to be a victim of something or someone. So a bunch of brats who grew up more fortunate than 99% of humans throughout history and never experienced real bigotry blame their shitty lives on whitey. Public schools and universities reinforce it by constantly reinforcing their victimhood.

A Nation of Victims: The Decay of the American Character

"I'm not responsible. Don't Blame Me. I'm a Victim."

 

[panamaican]

True, I certainly don't think constantly looking for someone to be pissed off at is helpful. I don't think they're going to pull themselves out without extra help, and I don't think extra help is coming. So we'll continue to see the best, brightst, and luckiest make it out.

I'm slightly more optimistic and believe that time and immigration heal all wounds. I say it in plenty of threads - immigrant black populations achieve academically and economically right in line with immigrant Asians (the ethnic group commonly pointed to as evidence of meritocratic outcomes). So more immigrants will mean better black statistics, given enough time, especially when coupled with the changes already occurring within black America.

And because I can never go long without poking at the Asian American piñata that some Americans hold up to shield themselves from acknowledging the long term racial effects of Jim Crow and segregation (don't worry, I've got 1 Chinese great-grandparent so I'm allowed to go there )...

I find the constant reference to Asian immigrant success while ignoring black immigrant success part and parcel of the same mentality that I referenced previously.

The mantra, that Asian American success is reflective of intrinsic Asian character/cultural/genetic differences, while choosing to ignore that most Asian countries are absolutely horrible places to live unless you're already privileged or smart enough to get out. It's part of the necessary fiction. Divorcing Asian American success from Asia's general failures to thrive allows poor white America to say that "Asians and Asian culture are just better" therefore their failure to equal Asian success isn't their fault but a product of the superior Asian worldview. That they never bother to apply this to Nigerians or Kenyans or Ghanians who are similarly accomplished once they get to the U.S., ie. the superior African worldview, lol, is because the ideological issue isn't really about black cultural failings but about maintaining some argument for their failed social standing relative to others.

Successful Africans are disregarded so that they can't contradict the race argument about intrinsic black failings, successful Asians are separated from their larger national failings so that they can support the concept that some races/cultures are just better than others. Both of these choices allow lower income white America to prop up the concept that they must be intrinsically better than at least one race in the U.S. Hence that they remain generational poor or relatively unaccomplished isn't really their individual failures but can be placed at the feet of unalterable race/culture elements.

Not many people are going to care but there's some fascinating parallels to this in the Haitian revolution. Rich whites generally held the highest social standing but it was poor whites who harbored the most resentment for wealthy free blacks (of which Haiti had plenty, many of whom owned slaves) and were some of the strongest supporters for apartheid policy even though it didn't economically benefit them. For them, the issue was social standing and racial discrimination gave them the strongest platform to more of it.

 

[RIPWarrior]

I'm slightly more optimistic and believe that time and immigration heal all wounds. I say it in plenty of threads - immigrant black populations achieve academically and economically right in line with immigrant Asians (the ethnic group commonly pointed to as evidence of meritocratic outcomes). So more immigrants will mean better black statistics, given enough time, especially when coupled with the changes already occurring within black America.

How the fuck is more immigration going to heal all wounds? Your optimism is delusional and not in line with reality. Do you think Asians, Mexicans and South Americans plus all the mulsims from the Middle East care about black Americans?

Mike is right on this one. Help ain't coming. The people that think they're helping are doing it all wrong. Blocking traffic, burning down neighborhoods, storming coffee shops filled with white people, belittling white people in libraries and being hostile is not going to garner support.

How hard is it to raise money for communities? Target one community at a time if you have to. How hard is that? You would need police to be involved to prevent criminals from sabotaging efforts to make the community safe again so construction can begin. Get the media too focus on that one area so others can see that there is hope. They would just have to be patient and wait their turn.

Getting rid of hood life and not acting white is the hard part. No one wants to teach hood life. This is a pretty bad situation that will only get worse. Like I said mike is right. Like I said in another thread the world is fucked.

 

[panamaican]

How the fuck is more immigration going to heal all wounds? Your optimism is delusional and not in line with reality. Do you think Asians, Mexicans and South Americans plus all the mulsims from the Middle East care about black Americans?

Mike is right on this one. Help ain't coming. The people that think they're helping are doing it all wrong. Blocking traffic, burning down neighborhoods, storming coffee shops filled with white people, belittling white people in libraries and being hostile is not going to garner support.

How hard is it to raise money for communities? Target one community at a time if you have to. How hard is that? You would need police to be involved to prevent criminals from sabotaging efforts to make the community safe again so construction can begin. Get the media too focus on that one area so others can see that there is hope. They would just have to be patient and wait their turn.

Getting rid of hood life and not acting white is the hard part. No one wants to teach hood life. This is a pretty bad situation that will only get worse. Like I said mike is right. Like I said in another thread the world is fucked.

You know why I rarely respond to you? It's because nothing you write ever makes actual sense once you peel back the rhetoric. For example - your first paragraph has nothing to do with the point I was making re: immigration.

Nor do your solutions have any connection to reality. Raise money for communities? Raise money from where? Give it to whom to do what with it? Construction on what? For whom? To buy with what money from what jobs? What hood life? What "not acting white", it's like your understanding of black America comes from deeply flawed sources, internalizing the empty rhetoric of others, or limited, superficial, engagement and not an actual, complete, and complex understanding of the community, it's internal demographics and historical development.

But then again, at least you're consistent.

 

[n...not crazy]

BLM is like feminism for ghetto trash.

The "ghetto trash" are merely expendable pawns. The major pieces in this game are snooty rich people. You know... privileged.

 

[RIPWarrior]

You know why I rarely respond to you? It's because nothing you write ever makes actual sense once you peel back the rhetoric. For example - your first paragraph has nothing to do with the point I was making re: immigration.

Nor do your solutions have any connection to reality. Raise money for communities? Raise money from where? Give it to whom to do what with it? Construction on what? For whom? To buy with what money from what jobs? What hood life? What "not acting white", it's like your understanding of black America comes from deeply flawed sources, internalizing the empty rhetoric of others, or limited, superficial, engagement and not an actual, complete, and complex understanding of the community, it's internal demographics and historical development.

But then again, at least you're consistent.

No money can be generated anywhere, if it was it can’t be given to anyone to do anything with because there is no one to give it to nor can there ever be someone to give it to, there is nothing that needs to be built in these communities, again there’s no one, no jobs, no such thing as hoodlife, no such thing as not acting white.

It’s white people’s fault. They should feel so guilty and let in more immigrants so they can be replaced and then black people will finally be free of oppression and systemic white racism.