American Jiu-Jitsu

OSB Flyweight said:
Not to be the devils advocate for this because I am neither for nor against ajj but brazilians are highly against no-gi jiu jitsu being called bjj. And if I'm not mistaken, ajj is no gi, so why can't it be called American jiu jitsu since wrestling is like Americas form of martial art. It's like Dave Camarillo combining his judo and bjj to institute guerilla jiu jitsu
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It's already called sub grappling. Some places call it no gi jiu jitsu. I'm competing in a "no gi Brazilian Jiu Jitsu" tournament next month.

For the record I put Camarillo's branding in the same category as "AJJ" and other such things. He emphasizes takedowns. That doesn't make it an entirely different art. I've seen his guys grapple and fight, doesn't look different from what the other guys are doing. Lots of guys in BJJ have judo backgrounds. Is Jacare doing "Guerilla Jiu Jitsu"?

Listen, guys can use whatever branding they want to promote their academy or program. But let's not all be stupid and buy into it and act like they've developed a radically different system, let alone something that merits being called a new art.
 
lechien said:
that is an interesting idea.

When Nate was in the TUF, he classified his skills into JJ, Judo, wrestling, boxing etc...

What makes you think it will end up being called JJ?

Is it because JJ had all the facets of MMA skills but people just choosed to specialised in sport BJJ instead?
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I think I read somewhere that Jujutsu was an umbrella term that included all forms of unarmed combat. MMA is also an umbrella term. Why can't there be one word that encompasses all the different unarmed fighting techniques?

I have also heard that Tjj did actually entail some weaponry.

Nathan is my buddy, but I don't think he cares too much about martial lexicon.

Some of us like to make up our own names over the years like...

kick yo ass jitsu
f' em up jitsu
hockey jitsu (pull the gi over their hand and let your hands go)

We don't really talk like that any more.

One thing Nick said one time was, "Cesar brought in some world champs in jiu jitsu. I take that shit and turn it into war."

That makes sense to me. I'll probably never battle an armored samurai without a weapon, but I want to be ready for anything.
 
Title Fight Productions said:
Yeah i read that post of yours from wiki and i agree, American JJ is indeed a blend of American wrestling and BJJ. I think that is something everyone can agree on. Oh and im not really disagreeing with you as much as i am having fun exploring this subject.
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I just really have a problem with someone just deciding to name something and everyone just jumping on board and adopting the name like this. Everyone in this thread is acting like "AJJ" is an established and accepted style. It's hard for me to accept this as something different, because the techniques, positions, and strategy he uses looks exactly like what I've been doing for the past 5 years in my no gi sub grappling class, which is literally BJJ without the gi. We learn greco and freestyle wrestling takedowns as a part of this. When we get to the ground, we do the exact same stuff Jake Shields is doing in every piece of footage I've seen of him.

So let me ask this: Is everyone here talking about just renaming nogi into "AJJ", or are people arguing that Jake Shields' style of grappling is distinct enough from what's being done at the moment that it should actually be called it's own thing? If it's the second thing then I disagree for the reasons I've said above, and if it's the first thing then I think that's pointless and gimmicky.
 
SuperSuperRambo said:
So let me ask this: Is everyone here talking about just renaming nogi into "AJJ", or are people arguing that Jake Shields' style of grappling is distinct enough from what's being done at the moment that it should actually be called it's own thing?
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I guess I was discussing at what point does one thing stop being branded one thing and become something entirely new? It really has nothing to do with Jake Shields and I most certainly don't think he is doing "AJJ". I would claim the point that Jake Shields as a professional MMA fighter developed his style to fit a specific set of rules if you had to peg any style I would say he trains MMA, which incorporates many different forms to maximize output within a certain set of rules.

On the point of nogi I would say it is submission grappling and nothing more or less.
 
SuperSuperRambo said:
It didn't. I don't even think that's what Helio claimed.
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Yeah, maybe not specificially, but for the sake of our debate i would say that "waiting for your opponent to make a move, because once he makes a move he opens himself up" is somewhat "Passive", wouldn't you?
 
I say yes to AJJ. Why the hels not. Either someone can create their own style based on the incorporation of different arts as in Sambo and BJJ or they cannot.

Otherwise BJJ is just Judo with an emphasis on newaza like Greco is wrestling with an emphasis on throws.
 
Gi, No Gi, MMA grappling, to me they are all jiu jitsu
 
SuperSuperRambo said:
Because freestyle wrestling has been taught in the BJJ since the 1970's since Rolls started training wrestling with an acquaintance of his from FILA. BJJ as practiced by every academy in the world has been using wrestling techniques like doubles and singles for the past 30 years. Of course none of the Gracies back then were as good at wrestling as high level collegiate wrestlers, but if you're saying that the use of wrestling techniques to get the fight to the ground and implement a BJJ strategy is forming a new martial art, then you're way late on that. The BJJ that everyone was exposed to in the 90's already had it.
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That's a pretty broad brush of over simplization you are painting with there friend.

First off, because Rolls and cross trained for the short amount of time he was alive and some others followed suit breifly, does not imo show that BJJ has integrated wrestling into the art. At least not to the degree that we are discussing.

Not to mention there marketing scheme sorta shoots themselves in the foot in regards to this as they claim to have cross trained very, very little and there whole mission and goal was to prove you didn't need anything other than GJJ to win and that GJJ beat all other styles.

Not to mention that these "singles and doubles" the Gracies were using in the 80's and 90's could have come more from Judo than wrestling.
 
Title Fight Productions said:
Yeah, maybe not specificially, but for the sake of our debate i would say that "waiting for your opponent to make a move, because once he makes a move he opens himself up" is somewhat "Passive", wouldn't you?
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Yes, definitely that is the description of passive, but I don't think that's what differentiated BJJ.
 
fourfif said:
Otherwise BJJ is just Judo with an emphasis on newaza like Greco is wrestling with an emphasis on throws.
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BJJ and Judo are defined by different rule sets. Different techniques are taught. The same can be said to differentiate freestyle and greco.
 
SuperSuperRambo said:
I just really have a problem with someone just deciding to name something and everyone just jumping on board and adopting the name like this. Everyone in this thread is acting like "AJJ" is an established and accepted style.
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Well to be fair that isn't true at all, that is why this thread is this long, is getting this much activity and we are still discussing it. Most in here don't believe it is.

I do agree with what you are saying as far as marketing and whatnot. That is one of the reasons that CACC isn't more well known, all the guys who learned it abroad and brought it back to North America branded it in there own way for personal gain.


It's hard for me to accept this as something different, because the techniques, positions, and strategy he uses looks exactly like what I've been doing for the past 5 years in my no gi sub grappling class, which is literally BJJ without the gi. We learn greco and freestyle wrestling takedowns as a part of this. When we get to the ground, we do the exact same stuff Jake Shields is doing in every piece of footage I've seen of him.
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But what you are ignoring is it is also very similar to what American wrestlers have been doing, just with subs added in. I think by Jake calling American JJ he is keeping true to the two art forms that make him who he is. Remember he was a dominant wrestler well before he was a dominant submission grappler or dominant Cesar Gracie BB.

So let me ask this: Is everyone here talking about just renaming nogi into "AJJ", or are people arguing that Jake Shields' style of grappling is distinct enough from what's being done at the moment that it should actually be called it's own thing? If it's the second thing then I disagree for the reasons I've said above, and if it's the first thing then I think that's pointless and gimmicky.
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I think we are undecided. I see it as more of a branding thing, but also i see the merit of his style being a bit different in the fact that he was essentially a BB in wrestling before he even started BJJ.
 
Title Fight Productions said:
Not to mention there marketing scheme sorta shoots themselves in the foot in regards to this as they claim to have cross trained very, very little and there whole mission and goal was to prove you didn't need anything other than GJJ to win and that GJJ beat all other styles.
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Let's not pretend that Rorion's marketing scheme speaks for anyone beyond his father and kids. The generalizations you are making come from Rorion, and very few people in the BJJ community adopt that view.
 
I know they said they trained freestyle, but to compare the takedown prowess to that of a college wrestler is laughable. JV wrestler maybe (1-2yrs). That's not disrespecting BJJ takedowns, but it's the truth. Those hunched over lunging takedowns won't work on anyone with past that level. Even then some JV guys from tough schools are rediculous. My JV guy placed in CA Sections when I had to sit out with a shoulder injury JR yr.

In the nineties it was moroto gari or bust. Straight up Judo tackle. QFT.

And yes, the art of incorporating a takedown art like Judo or wrestling warrants distinction.
 
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SuperSuperRambo said:
Let's not pretend that Rorion's marketing scheme speaks for anyone beyond his father and kids. The generalizations you are making come from Rorion, and very few people in the BJJ community adopt that view.
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LOL, Rorion is what his father told him to be and that is exactly what Helio and his clan did. Most lineages can still be traced rather quickly back to the Gracies, i mean like one generation quick.

I don't think that's a generalization at all, not to mention you are the one who brought up the 70's as an reason why BJJ is already JJ with wrestling takedowns.
 
Title Fight Productions said:
I think we are undecided. I see it as more of a branding thing, but also i see the merit of his style being a bit different in the fact that he was essentially a BB in wrestling before he even started BJJ.
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Then that's nothing new. High level wrestling + high level jiu jitsu? That's a new art? I don't buy it for a second. It's high level wrestling and high level jiu jitsu. I consider his branding the same as what Dave Camarillo is doing, or Rorion Gracie. Just meaningless branding to sell the product. But the same core philosophy, just different personal strengths.

That said, I'm a huge fan of Jake Shields and his grappling. I just don't think it's very different or new. He's just got great wrestling and a very sound BJJ game focused on top position (although he does take the back a lot).
 
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