Social All people once spoke the same language?

[JSN]

I already edited that out after I checked his quote again. You're right

So you admit you were wrong? Ha! In your face!

jk

 

[terrapin]

There isn't that one first women we all originate from, that's a common misconception. Here you go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

"she is defined as the most recent woman from whom all living humans descend in an unbroken line purely through their mothers and through the mothers of those mothers, back until all lines converge on one woman"

thanks just read it. some of it is over my head and i wish there were a human tree depicting it. (i know, dumb guy needs pics).

is this paragraph from the link suggesting that non christian scientists, actual real ones, have come up with a number around 6000 years ago for mitochondrial eve?

In 1997, Parsons et al. (1997) published a study of mtDNA mutation rates in a single, well-documented family (the Romanov family of Russian royalty). In this study, they calculated a mutation rate upwards of twenty times higher than previous results.[31] This study has been cited by Creationists to justify the emergence of "Eve" only 6,000 years ago.[32] As Donald Chittick pointed out, the "6000 year date for Eve brings to mind the Biblical time scale and is an uncomfortable result for evolutionism."[33]

 

[FierceRedBelt]

Think the LBK and other early agricultural peoples in Europe spoke the same language probably. When they came into contact again after branching off after leaving Greece they still spoke the same language iirc.
I wonder how far back the Bible and other books go back? Like the living memory which can go back centuries in illiterate societies. Wonder what stories and such they heard and what not before they slowly faded

Some things found in the Torah can be can be found in much older Mesopotamian texts in very similar forms. The most obvious being the tale of the flood. Which means it may be an example verbal history passed on for millennia.

I'm not sure much is known about the early European hunter gatherers language. Where did you read that?

The much later Indo-European language tree did evolve and heavily but they curb stomped early European languages in the process.

 

[JSN]

thanks just read it. some of it is over my head and i wish there were a human tree depicting it. (i know, dumb guy needs pics).

is this paragraph from the link suggesting that non christian scientists, actual real ones, have come up with a number around 6000 years ago for mitochondrial eve?

In 1997, Parsons et al. (1997) published a study of mtDNA mutation rates in a single, well-documented family (the Romanov family of Russian royalty). In this study, they calculated a mutation rate upwards of twenty times higher than previous results.[31] This study has been cited by Creationists to justify the emergence of "Eve" only 6,000 years ago.[32] As Donald Chittick pointed out, the "6000 year date for Eve brings to mind the Biblical time scale and is an uncomfortable result for evolutionism."[33]

Best to determine constants on an evolutionary time scale from physical evidence on such a time scale and not based on a short sample set. Any error will be magnified.

The evidence for mitochondrial eve being more on the order of 100,000 years is based on multiple lines of evidence converging. You have mutation constants worked out from mitochondrial DNA extracted along with your main DNA when possible, bodies dated by physical methods that are more exact like the decay of atoms present.

 

[E Undead]

thanks just read it. some of it is over my head and i wish there were a human tree depicting it. (i know, dumb guy needs pics).

is this paragraph from the link suggesting that non christian scientists, actual real ones, have come up with a number around 6000 years ago for mitochondrial eve?

In 1997, Parsons et al. (1997) published a study of mtDNA mutation rates in a single, well-documented family (the Romanov family of Russian royalty). In this study, they calculated a mutation rate upwards of twenty times higher than previous results.[31] This study has been cited by Creationists to justify the emergence of "Eve" only 6,000 years ago.[32] As Donald Chittick pointed out, the "6000 year date for Eve brings to mind the Biblical time scale and is an uncomfortable result for evolutionism."[33]

These guys actually completely misinterpret the whole issue and tweeked some buttons (they calculated a mutation rate upwards of twenty times higher than previous results -> using that on Mitochondrial Eve) to fit their narrative. Even if that insane mutation rate would be accurate (which it isn't) they still didn't understand the difference between the first actual woman and Mitochondrial Eve. The idea that Mitochondrial Eve lived 6k years ago alone is completely insane considering how far-spread humans already were at that time.

 

[terrapin]

These guys actually completely misinterpret the whole issue and tweeked some buttons (they calculated a mutation rate upwards of twenty times higher than previous results -> using that on Mitochondrial Eve) to fit their narrative. Even if that insane mutation rate would be accurate (which it isn't) they still didn't understand the difference between the first actual woman and Mitochondrial Eve. The idea that Mitochondrial Eve lived 6k years ago alone is completely insane considering how far-spread humans already were at that time.

@JSN
ok. that makes sense. do you think i misunderstood the Wikipedia paragraph quoted? or do you think its wrong?

 

[William Huggins]

As animals quite possible, but tbh idk if animals of same race in different regions use different kind of grunts and growls... maybe some with complex communication do

After we evolved into "people"? Very unlikely unless the "first language" was invented before individual started to spread all around the world

We are starting to uncover that dolphins actually have a complex language of their own and even Orca can learn it, we already know that both Orca and Dolphin communicate differently from Pod to Pod.

Humans generally operated in tribes (you can still see this today) and to them it's more important that they recognise people of their own tribe, through language and appearance. I can easily copy someone's appearance through observation but not their languages.

It may be something thats innate to humans in general.

Even modern humans still continue this with accents and slang that denotes an area they come from, even if they share a common tongue.

 

[JSN]

@JSN
ok. that makes sense. do you think i misunderstood the Wikipedia paragraph quoted? or do you think its wrong?

as best I can dig, this Parsons fellow tried a technique to analyze the mitochondrial DNA and found that it didn't fit evidence and gave way too high of a mutation rate. It sounds like both he and pretty much every other scientist in the field dismissed the notion, but some creations seized on that particular publication to "prove" that mitochondrial eve like ~6,000 years ago.

TBH for the most part creationists are really the only ones showing interest in this debate but there's a a set of pages here:

https://www.evolutionpages.com/Mitochondrial Eve.htm

I must confess that I'm not super interested if you find the debate fascinating it might be worth reading for you.

 

[ElKarlo]

Some things found in the Torah can be can be found in much older Mesopotamian texts in very similar forms. The most obvious being the tale of the flood. Which means it may be an example verbal history passed on for millennia.

I'm not sure much is known about the early European hunter gatherers language. Where did you read that?

The much later Indo-European language tree did evolve and heavily but they curb stomped early European languages in the process.

Hear it on a podcast wondery history by Patrick Weismann. Guy was an mma reporter and does some good deep dives into subjects, mostly ancient

lyes the flood story to me is probably dealing with events like doggerland disappearing and other local cataclysmic events where the ocean rose suddenly and people were killed and or displaced.
The Greeks had some sort of dance where they’d get on stage and dress as animals and act like them. Which is very uncharacteristic of their other plays and such. Probably was an ancient hold over from hunter gathering or when farmers went on large hunts.
Btw a historian went to the balkans in the 1910s and found that illiterate story tellers all had the same story basically word for word. As do Polynesian people’s. There was definitely a large amount of old stories passed on by the time recorded history had started

 

[ElKarlo]

We are starting to uncover that dolphins actually have a complex language of their own and even Orca can learn it, we already know that both Orca and Dolphin communicate differently from Pod to Pod.

Humans generally operated in tribes (you can still see this today) and to them it's more important that they recognise people of their own tribe, through language and appearance. I can easily copy someone's appearance through observation but not their languages.

It may be something thats innate to humans in general.

Even modern humans still continue this with accents and slang that denotes an area they come from, even if they share a common tongue.

A Magyar from Hungary went to the steppe right before the Mongolian invasions. Though hundreds of years removed he was surprised at how their languages were completely understandable.
Before the reformation Europeans communicated in Latin

 

[FierceRedBelt]

Hear it on a podcast wondery history by Patrick Weismann. Guy was an mma reporter and does some good deep dives into subjects, mostly ancient

lyes the flood story to me is probably dealing with events like doggerland disappearing and other local cataclysmic events where the ocean rose suddenly and people were killed and or displaced.
The Greeks had some sort of dance where they’d get on stage and dress as animals and act like them. Which is very uncharacteristic of their other plays and such. Probably was an ancient hold over from hunter gathering or when farmers went on large hunts.
Btw a historian went to the balkans in the 1910s and found that illiterate story tellers all had the same story basically word for word. As do Polynesian people’s. There was definitely a large amount of old stories passed on by the time recorded history had started

I'll check that out.

Not sure if I made it clear I mean strong parallels to the story of Noah, not just a flood.

Although the story of Noah in the Hebrew Bible is the most well-known flood myth in Western culture, it shows the influence of earlier narratives from Mesopotamia. The nineteenth-century Assyriologist George Smith first translated a Babylonian account of a great flood,[2] and further discoveries produced several versions of the Mesopotamian flood myth, with the account closest to that in Genesis being found in a 700 BC Babylonian copy of the Epic of Gilgamesh.[3] Many scholars believe that this was copied from the Akkadian Atra-Hasis,[a] which dates to the 18th century BC.[5]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth#cite_note-8 In the Gilgamesh flood myth, the highest god Enlil decides to destroy the world with a flood because humans have become too noisy. The god Ea, who created humans out of clay and divine blood, secretly warns the hero Utnapishtim of the impending flood and gives him detailed instructions for building a boat so that life may survive.[7][8] Both the Epic of Gilgamesh and Atra-Hasis are believed to have originated in the Sumerian creation myth—the oldest surviving example of such a flood myth narrative, known from tablets found in the ruins of Nippur in the late 1890s and translated by Arno Poebel.[9]


George Smith, who discovered and translated the Epic of Gilgamesh
In the Book of Genesis (c. 6th century BC)[10] the god Yahweh, who created man out of the dust of the ground,[11] decides to flood the earth because of the corrupted state of mankind. Yahweh then gives the protagonist, Noah, instructions to build an ark in order to preserve human and animal life. When the ark is completed, Noah, his family, and representatives of all the animals of the earth are called upon to enter the ark. When the destructive flood begins, all life outside of the ark perishes. After the waters recede, all those aboard the ark disembark and have Yahweh's promise that he will never judge the earth with a flood again. He causes a rainbow to form as the sign of this promise.[12] Some religious scholars deny the earlier existence of the Gilgamesh narrative, reversing the direction of literary inheritance.[c]

In Hindu mythology, texts such as the Satapatha Brahmana (dated to around the 6th century BC)[15] and the Puranas contain the story of a great flood, "Pralaya",[16] wherein the Matsya Avatar of the Vishnu warns the first man, Manu, of the impending flood, and also advises him to build a giant boat.[17][18][19] In Zoroastrian Mazdaism, Ahriman tries to destroy the world with a drought, which Mithra ends by shooting an arrow into a rock, from which a flood springs; one man survives in an ark with his cattle.[20]

In Plato's Timaeus, written c. 360 BC, Timaeus describes a flood myth similar to the earlier versions. In it, the Bronze race of humans angers the high god Zeus with their constant warring. Zeus decides to punish humanity with a flood. The Titan Prometheus, who had created humans from clay, tells the secret plan to Deucalion, advising him to build an ark in order to be saved. After nine nights and days, the water starts receding and the ark lands on a mountain.[21]

 

[ElKarlo]

I'll check that out.

Not sure if I made it clear I mean strong parallels to the story of Noah, not just a flood.

Sorry it’s tides of history by wondery Patrick wyman.
Yeah it’s interesting how Noah is a consistent character. No matter what it seems that there is a guy who knew something and was prepared
It’s also amazing because the Old Testament is from 700 BC or so and even that old is still massively removed from what probably was a great flood. Which shows how long these stories were being consistently told. Which is amazing

 

[Patrick Jane]

Bullshit.

 

[Beechwood]

I remember when I was learning a little bit of Chinese, being surprised at the words for mom and dad in Chinese being similar to western words for mom and dad. When looking at other countries languages I often found a similarities for mom and dad - though not always. It did have me wonder if there was a time were all humans lived today, at least in the north, and used some basics words.

 

[Your Account]

its the same as asking if all religious have the same origin.

What do you think , do they have the same origin ?

 

[rocketskates]

Yes. Ooga booga!

 

[RowdyLesnar]

Hebrew and Arabic are sister language so it's possible throughout the centuries the language just got evolved into something else. Then again, I'm drinking Pepsi.

 

[FactNotFiction]

Is that true?
Any history data supporting that?

It's entirely possible.

 

[FadeLess]

What do you think , do they have the same origin ?

Yes, there´s just different interpretations of what started them.