Ali's unique defence...

mozfonky said:
boxers don't throw double right hands too often, Hagler exploited that a lot by doubling and tripling up on his crosses, which, with him, he could throw from both sides, no one expects those kinds of punches. as far as lead right hands, Ali deserves a lot of credit for doing that in the foreman fight, making it work, so far as I know, no one did that before him, (probably did but I've never seen it done like that) and a lot of fighters imitated that. Hopkins used it to great effect in the Trinidad fight, that kind of cross is not as powerful as a real right cross because you have to disguise it a little bit and throw It like a jab but it still had enough power to bedevil foreman and Trinidad.
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Mayweather did it a good number of times where he would start shooting multiple straight rights in a row
 
mozfonky said:
he once said his defense was in his legs but really, it was a lot more than that. He just had the gift. You can see him turn his chin just enough to avoid shots, you can see a guy, fast guy, like floyd patterson throw a punch and ali parries it perfectly. Ali said he didn't really know how he did it himself, that he would just a big glove passing his face. So, his style might have been based on movement and distance but it was also a lot more than that. Many of his championship 60's fights, when he was at his best, show him rarely taking a good punch. Those were good fighters though, there were times he was gotten to and if you watch, he would look dazed. Chuvalo caught him with some great punches, even poor cleveland williams had him hurt once which some think is the real reason he fought so hard to take him out so fast.

It's not really enough to just be fast and to move away from one punch, the hard part is not moving into other punches and dodging combinations. So, if you move left or right away from a jab, you have to be ready to evade a right or a hook. Then we can talk about absorbing a punch once it lands by riding with the force, taking out most of the energy, ali could do all of those things. As we all know, in the seventies he lost his legs, didn't dance as much and his reflexes were not the same, on top of that, he foolishly thought that his toughness came from taking punches from sparring partners before fights, he believed you could condition your chin like you condition a lot of other things. And then he got lazy and uninspired in fights.
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Good post, I don’t think he got lazy, I think as you noted his legs went and reflexes to an extent as well. Subsequently he had to absorb more shots as opposed to avoid. Later on Parkinson’s had started to take hold and it’s a shame they let him fight his last few fights to be honest.
 
Kovalev's "Man Bag" said:
Fighters that pull straight back are asking to get nailed. It's fundamentally flawed but effective, Israel Adesanya does it in MMA (so did Anderson, it got him KO'ed by Weidman), both Klitschko brothers would pull back often due to their height advantage to dodge punches upstairs, and Floyd would manipulate distance using his upper body positioning to bait opponents and then pull back to counter after they reached/overextended. It's used a whole lot in Muay Thai and kickboxing as well.

It's basically a lazy layback. Here is a far less risky way of making opponents reach for you. Notice the upper body posture (back is kept straight) and the rear knee bending to manipulate distance.
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Yeah true, another fighter who used the layback really well was Naseem Hamed. But Barerra had worked him out and would just follow him when he laid back and then catch him with follow up punches.
Until that point no one had been consistently been able to take advantage of this flaw.
 
aries said:
Yeah true, another fighter who used the layback really well was Naseem Hamed. But Barerra had worked him out and would just follow him when he laid back and then catch him with follow up punches.
Until that point no one had been consistently been able to take advantage of this flaw.
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i love naseem lol

 
cocksure said:
Do you think the nature of boxing, getting used to being punched in the face, makes for better chins?
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Of course taking punches for years does but like anything else in the sport, its aptitude not method. So, no, I dont think you can change a weak chin into a great one.
 
Mr.Maelstrom said:
I enjoy reading you guys talk fighting/fighters
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Thats how i started out by just lurking here. Then ended up bringing the boxing forum back to life on my previous account “killer_ofTrolls”. Though most admit it, lol.
 
KillerIsBack V2 said:
Thats how i started out by just lurking here. Then ended up bringing the boxing forum back to life on my previous account “killer_ofTrolls”. Though most admit it, lol.
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I enjoy nearly everyone who's a regular here. I enjoy reading the back n forth bc it's always fascinating stuff.
 
mozfonky said:
Of course taking punches for years does but like anything else in the sport, its aptitude not method. So, no, I dont think you can change a weak chin into a great one.
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Just wondered if there was any reasoning behind your joke.
 
aries said:
Yeah true, another fighter who used the layback really well was Naseem Hamed. But Barerra had worked him out and would just follow him when he laid back and then catch him with follow up punches.
Until that point no one had been consistently been able to take advantage of this flaw.
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Exactly right. Just follow them out and follow up with more punches to get on top of them. You could double and triple up to catch them. Laying a trap with a feint was previously mentioned which could work as well by following it up with a step in lead hook. A good swarmer could make them pay a heavy price if they actually lean back at the waist when pulling (not all do, some just transfer the weight back to the rear leg or bend their rear knee).

In MMA it would compromise their ability to defend a takedown. One could be setup easily through a feint or by flashing the jab to trigger them into pulling/laying back, and then shooting (for instance, with a blast double leg). Their body will be left exposed as well when they pull, the lower upper body. In MMA, MT, and kickboxing you could also chop away at their legs with hard low kicks. It compromises their base and by extension compromises their ability to move away with their feet as well as taking a shot.
 
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cocksure said:
Do you think the nature of boxing, getting used to being punched in the face, makes for better chins?
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now that I'm off my phone, i'll give a little more in depth opinion. You take a group of people (boxers) who are getting hit from the time they are 10 or so and they grow up that way, they are going to adapt to it somewhat, that adaptation will still be based around a loose aptitude for being able to take concussive punches. The same way a fighter might adapt to their own level for being a puncher. So, in that group, you will have guys who can take great punches and those who can't and all the inbetween. By the time they are pros, that ability is probably at least close to the limits of where it will ever get to. So, a guy with a lousy chin by pro champion boxing standards, (Benitez,Terry Norris) will never ever get an ali like chin by getting hit more, never. Now, you have the guys with great chins, like Chavez, Chuvalo or Ali and they usually are pretty consistent with the punches they can take throughout their careers. Some have said a chin deteriorates, but I don't believe that myself.

Now, we have another group of fighters, who don't want to take hits, use every excuse in the book to avoid taking hits, are petrified of taking hits and think they should only take them when the lights are on. So, by and large, most mma fighters, who haven't gotten hit since the age of ten, play around in sparring for the most part and make excuses for going all out, is it any wonder why Mayorga almost coldcocked a prospective opponent with a slap? Or in the early days of the ufc's guys would get hit by a jab and it was bedtime for bonzo? MMA fighters are just a different species, maybe superior all around if we're talking who could get a W in a real fight but they are just kinda wierd as far as how they think and how they live and how they train. Just this past week, we had some local pro wierdo who used to go around in a super hero costume on the streets to fight crime get busted dealing drugs. Just the kind of wierdo that was commonplace around the mma fighters I knew.
 
mozfonky said:
Just this past week, we had some local pro wierdo who used to go around in a super hero costume on the streets to fight crime get busted dealing drugs. Just the kind of wierdo that was commonplace around the mma fighters I knew.
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