Ali's unique defence...

Discussion in 'Boxing Discussion' started by eternaldarkness, Feb 7, 2020.

  1. eternaldarkness Red Belt

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    Created unusual countering opportunities. The way ali pulled straight back from the jab (traditionally bad) caused his opponents to start reaching with the jab, which created an opening for Ali's flashing right hand counter. He also threw his right a lot longer than what was "standard" in that era (at the expense of some follow through). This allowed him to constantly catch his opponents, when they though they were out of range.
     
  2. defjaam Member of the Dmitry Pirog movement

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    [​IMG]
     
  3. mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    he once said his defense was in his legs but really, it was a lot more than that. He just had the gift. You can see him turn his chin just enough to avoid shots, you can see a guy, fast guy, like floyd patterson throw a punch and ali parries it perfectly. Ali said he didn't really know how he did it himself, that he would just a big glove passing his face. So, his style might have been based on movement and distance but it was also a lot more than that. Many of his championship 60's fights, when he was at his best, show him rarely taking a good punch. Those were good fighters though, there were times he was gotten to and if you watch, he would look dazed. Chuvalo caught him with some great punches, even poor cleveland williams had him hurt once which some think is the real reason he fought so hard to take him out so fast.

    It's not really enough to just be fast and to move away from one punch, the hard part is not moving into other punches and dodging combinations. So, if you move left or right away from a jab, you have to be ready to evade a right or a hook. Then we can talk about absorbing a punch once it lands by riding with the force, taking out most of the energy, ali could do all of those things. As we all know, in the seventies he lost his legs, didn't dance as much and his reflexes were not the same, on top of that, he foolishly thought that his toughness came from taking punches from sparring partners before fights, he believed you could condition your chin like you condition a lot of other things. And then he got lazy and uninspired in fights.
     
  4. eternaldarkness Red Belt

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    It was more a reflection, that "breaking the rules" sometimes creates unique opportunities. Mayweather was the master at getting his opponents to think he was following the rules just long enough to break them. He would start out fighting orthodox them start leading with rights and leaping in with left hooks. Sometimes the right thing to do is the wrong one.
     
  5. Kovalev's "Man Bag" I don't do titles

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    Fighters that pull straight back are asking to get nailed. It's fundamentally flawed but effective, Israel Adesanya does it in MMA (so did Anderson, it got him KO'ed by Weidman), both Klitschko brothers would pull back often due to their height advantage to dodge punches upstairs, and Floyd would manipulate distance using his upper body positioning to bait opponents and then pull back to counter after they reached/overextended. It's used a whole lot in Muay Thai and kickboxing as well.

    It's basically a lazy layback. Here is a far less risky way of making opponents reach for you. Notice the upper body posture (back is kept straight) and the rear knee bending to manipulate distance.
     
  6. Kovalev's "Man Bag" I don't do titles

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    One of the technically ugliest KOs you'll ever see from a high level striker, effectiveness aside
     
  7. ConorFacts Banned Banned

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    ad vs rob looked like holm vs schev

    Definition of low Level IQ

    lol
     
  8. mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    jose torres used to say it was like backing up to get out of the way of a train but, if you have the height and know what you're doing it's great. a taller fighter shouldn't be fighting like a shorter fighter. But of course, when I saw Nas doing it all the time I knew it was all wrong for someone that short and he paid for it many times. you basically have nowhere to go when you are pulled that far back. Ali did it but he also did a helluva lot more, as I mentioned, he also parried, he ducked, he turned his head, he had more than one way of avoiding punches and then, when that failed, he had the greatest chin in heavyweight championship history. Even old and sick, holmes and berbick couldn't floor him, not even shavers who he fought his last really great fight with.

    Also, ali did something that no one really mentions, he leaned in with his jab, often times so far that his rear foot was off the canvas, this added a dimension to his jab that allowed him to smack around sonny liston with his 85 inch reach. So, he was actually a lot farther away than his opponents were used to when they were getting hit.
     
  9. eternaldarkness Red Belt

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    He definitely fought from a range that most opponents had trouble gauging.
     
  10. DeJulez Banned Banned

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    With Silva and Weidman, if I remember correct, Silva was use to dodging punches with simply slipping the 1-2. Rarely in MMA do u see doubling and tripling up on punches. So Silva would just dodge the 1-2 and made it look spectacular. Then Weidman threw a 1-2 and then came back with a back fist and thats all it took.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
  11. mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    also, movement and angles, he made rematches look different when he could move. The norton, frazier and spinks rematches were very different form when he came in stationary in the first fights. Problem was, man that size and age had to work his ass off to do that.
     
  12. Kovalev's "Man Bag" I don't do titles

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    Yeah, when he doubled up the right hand it threw Silva's read off. Weidman didn't know to do it though he was just trying to touch him out of frustration. That's what he said later on in an interview and that's what it looks like when you watch the KO.
     
  13. Kovalev's "Man Bag" I don't do titles

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    With taller fighters it's even more effective which is why I mentioned the Klitschkos only they wouldn't counter with pinpoint accuracy they would just pull back to defend usually. It's still done a whole lot in Muay Thai at the highest level (to dodge high kicks as well) and in kickboxing and there's still plenty of high level boxers that pull back. Ali used to manipulate distance similar to Floyd by leaning in with his head over his knee to appear closer to his opponents, Roy used this trick as well along with pulling back.
     
  14. mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    A backfist? I'll have a look, mma Chins are lame.
     
  15. mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    Just saw it left hook put him down but that stupid ali stagger really set his own self up. Only ali could do those things
     
  16. Kovalev's "Man Bag" I don't do titles

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    The left hook put him out but it was actually the backfist type of punch thrown prior that threw Anderson off. Most MMA fighters only train to avoid basic combinations like 1-2's as @DeJulez said. Throwing combos that double and triple up the same hand are trickier to deal with than predictable alternating patterns such as Left-Right-Left. Boxers can deal with it but that's because they're used to seeing it in the gym all the time and in the ring.
     
  17. Mr.Maelstrom "Pull up" Belt

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    I enjoy reading you guys talk fighting/fighters
     
  18. mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    boxers don't throw double right hands too often, Hagler exploited that a lot by doubling and tripling up on his crosses, which, with him, he could throw from both sides, no one expects those kinds of punches. as far as lead right hands, Ali deserves a lot of credit for doing that in the foreman fight, making it work, so far as I know, no one did that before him, (probably did but I've never seen it done like that) and a lot of fighters imitated that. Hopkins used it to great effect in the Trinidad fight, that kind of cross is not as powerful as a real right cross because you have to disguise it a little bit and throw It like a jab but it still had enough power to bedevil foreman and Trinidad.
     
  19. eternaldarkness Red Belt

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    Personally, pulling back from punches is a pet hate of mine, but I have never had the speed to get away with "unorthodox" techniques.
     
  20. Kovalev's "Man Bag" I don't do titles

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    An orthodox stance fighter won't double up too often on right hands but it's something they'll have seen and can anticipate better. Most of the doubling and tripling up we see in boxing is obviously with the lead hand whether they're orthodox or southpaw. Most MMA fighters keep shit really basic and don't even bother double jabbing. They throw lots of predictable single shots that are telegraphed and make basic reads when defending.
     

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