Alcohol and tobacco are by far the biggest threat to human welfare of all addictive drugs

[panamaican]

I don´t think that is true 100% of the time, at least not if we are talking negative impact. A shitload of factors to consider.
Portugal had a heroin epidemic going and one of the highest pr capita number of addicts. They decriminalized with major success.

That's not a comparison to other legal substances, it's a comparison on the same subject pre- and post- decriminalization.

Decriminalization should not be considered the same as legalization. They are very different in terms of impact. Decriminalizing possession of drugs doesn't change the illegality of mass production and distribution of those drugs. Heroin is still illegal, no company can legally set up a heroin production facility in Portugal and sell it to the public.

 

[Prutfis]

That's not a comparison to other legal substances, it's a comparison on the same subject pre- and post- decriminalization.

Decriminalization should not be considered the same as legalization. They are very different in terms of impact. Decriminalizing possession of drugs doesn't change the illegality of mass production and distribution of those drugs. Heroin is still illegal, no company can legally set up a heroin production facility in Portugal and sell it to the public.

That is true, but like I said there are probably to many factors to consider. Legalizing weed in US states has not created 1000s of new potheads.

 

[Prutfis]

A lot of countries tax alcohol, tobacco and even fast food at high rates.

It's not a be and end all solution though as excessive taxation leads to a sustainable black market. We have a pretty big black market for tobacco here that never existed before we went nuts on the taxation for it. Black market tobacco isn't only worse for you than legal tobacco it's also substantially cheaper too here.

What kind of black market tobacco are you getting? I just get the same as I would normally buy but they have been purchased in international waters so no taxes or anything on them.

 

[panamaican]

You really think buying illegal drugs is that difficult?

Do you believe legalized illicit drugs means we're just going to go full free market on them without the restrictions you talk about?

Hey you're 18 now, have some heroin I bought it at the local convenience store...

It's more difficult to buy illegal drugs than it is to buy alcohol or tobacco. To illustrate - direct me to the illegal drugs section of your local supermarket or the illegal drugs store in your town. Then direct me to the tobacco/alcohol section in those same stores or the tobacco/alcohol retailers in that same town.

The rest of your post doesn't have anything to do with my post. We have restrictions on tobacco and alcohol. Restrictions on legalized drugs wouldn't be that different and would still result in greater access by the general public. Legal substances are more accessible than illegal substances and thus the negative impacts will be greater.

Comparing legal to illegal is an apples to oranges comparison.

 

[Cid]

What kind of black market tobacco are you getting? I just get the same as I would normally buy but they have been purchased in international waters so no taxes or anything on them.

We get stuff shipped in from China that is cheap as chips and don't have anywhere near the level of quality control that our country insists on.

Frankly I don't even buy food from China.

 

[Son of Jamin]

This thread is about the last legal drugs ruining society, and you think legalizing more drugs is the solution?

Thanks for informing me what my thread is about, I’m getting up there in age and could need a reminder!

Harm reduction, many drug addicts receive less harmful alternatives to help them break free from their addiction!

Legalizing drugs removes stigma, which in turn makes it easier for addicts to seek out help!

Law-enforcement can be used for better purposes than targeting users!

Taxation of drugs can be used to combat addiction, rehabilitation, information!

The alternative is that criminals get the money.

 

[irish_thug]

A lot of countries tax alcohol, tobacco and even fast food at high rates.

It's not a be and end all solution though as excessive taxation leads to a sustainable black market. We have a pretty big black market for tobacco here that never existed before we went nuts on the taxation for it. Black market tobacco isn't only worse for you than legal tobacco it's also substantially cheaper too here.

When I started smoking regularly in my early teens cigarettes were $5-6 CAD for a pack of 25. Black market tobacco took off courtesy of Native reserves/smugging from the US, so a few year later the gov't slashed the taxes to combat the competition, down to about $3. Fast forward 20 or so years and I think they're $11-12 a pack now, I quit years ago, so I'm not sure. Governments will do what ever they can to protect that tax revenue.

 

[Cid]

It's more difficult to buy illegal drugs than it is to buy alcohol or tobacco. To illustrate - direct me to the illegal drugs section of your local supermarket or the illegal drugs store in your town. Then direct me to the tobacco/alcohol section in those same stores or the tobacco/alcohol retailers in that same town.

The rest of your post doesn't have anything to do with my post. We have restrictions on tobacco and alcohol. Restrictions on legalized drugs wouldn't be that different and would still result in greater access by the general public. Legal substances are more accessible than illegal substances and thus the negative impacts will be greater.

Comparing legal to illegal is an apples to oranges comparison.

I'm not saying it's as easy as tobacco and alcohol but rather the hindrance is nowhere near as much as people think it is.

Also you can make legal substances every bit as difficult to obtain as you can illegal substances. I live in a country where there are incredibly tight gun laws. You can get one but they don't make it easy.

I can go and buy illegal drugs much easier than I can go buy a gun.

Actually buying illegal drugs is much easier than a lot of legal activities.

My issue here is prohibitionists like yourself think that just because we make drugs legal means that heroin, coke, meth are all going to be incredibly easy substances to obtain when we both know that legislation enabling people to buy these horrific drugs with ease will never happen in a democratic country.

 

[Ruprecht]

You're never going to get social use of heroin or LSD like we've had with tobacco and alcohol regardless of legality.
They just aren't that sort of drug.
Khat and betel nut on the other hand...

 

[panamaican]

That is true, but like I said there are probably to many factors to consider. Legalizing weed in US states has not created 1000s of new potheads.

It's not legal in the U.S. It's decriminalized in some states and legal in a few others with various rules on what exactly is legally accessible to the public. It's also less than 6 years since a single state made the change.

And there have been measurable increases in marijuana related traffic accidents (traffic fatalities have not been significantly impacted) in some of the states that have legalized.

Note that is not an argument for/against legalizing marijuana. It's simply pointing out that legalizing something will increase the impact on society as a result of increasing the accessibility. If society is fine with that impact then so be it but that's a far cry from pretending that increasing access to something won't result in increased effect from that something..

 

[Cid]

When I started smoking regularly in my early teens cigarettes were $5-6 CAD for a pack of 25. Black market tobacco took off courtesy of Native reserves/smugging from the US, so a few year later the gov't slashed the taxes to combat the competition, down to about $3. Fast forward 20 or so years and I think they're $11-12 a pack now, I quit years ago, so I'm not sure. Governments will do what ever they can to protect that tax revenue.

I don't really think of it as revenue but rather trying to find a balance between the cost of a substance and the price it adds to the public health system both our countries have.

Tobacco costs more money in increased medical expenditure than it brings in as tax revenue.

It's only a revenue for countries without tax payer funded health care systems. Even then I don't think it really makes anyone money other than the people who own the companies.

 

[irish_thug]

I don't really think of it as revenue but rather trying to find a balance between the cost of a substance and the price it adds to the public health system both our countries have.

Tobacco costs more money in increased medical expenditure than it brings in as tax revenue.

It's only a revenue for countries without tax payer funded health care systems. Even then I don't think it really makes anyone money other than the people who own the companies.

Its revenue now. For increased burden down the road. The cost is the future's problem. That's how government's work. Cost doesn't keep people from smoking, but it does ensure tax revenue.

Get a 19 year old smoking now. At 1/2 a pack a day you're looking at 10s of thousands in tax revenue per smoker until they become a burden on the health care system. That's some other government's problem.

 

[panamaican]

I'm not saying it's as easy as tobacco and alcohol but rather the hindrance is nowhere near as much as people think it is.

Also you can make legal substances every bit as difficult to obtain as you can illegal substances. I live in a country where there are incredibly tight gun laws. You can get one but they don't make it easy.

I can go and buy illegal drugs much easier than I can go buy a gun.

Actually buying illegal drugs is much easier than a lot of legal activities.

My issue here is prohibitionists like yourself think that just because we make drugs legal means that heroin, coke, meth are all going to be incredibly easy substances to obtain when we both know that legislation enabling people to buy these horrific drugs with ease will never happen in a democratic country.

You're arguing things I don't care about based on things I didn't say by applying logic that doesn't make sense.

Compare buying illegal guns to buying legal ones. Compare buying illegal drugs to buying legal drugs. Apples to apples. Not 2 different products in 2 different industries.

If your legal guns became illegal, they would be even harder to access than they are now. If your illegal drugs became legal, they would even easier to access than they are now. Apples to apples. The same product in the same industry with the legality being the only difference.

I can't really respond to the rest of your post because it's based on a premise that I've never stated which is "that illegal products are always easier to obtain than legal ones". I've never stated that so I won't argue with you over it. .

 

[Ruprecht]

It's not legal in the U.S. It's decriminalized in some states and legal in a few others with various rules on what exactly is legally accessible to the public. It's also less than 6 years since a single state made the change.

And there have been measurable increases in marijuana related traffic accidents (traffic fatalities have not been significantly impacted) in some of the states that have legalized.

Note that is not an argument for/against legalizing marijuana. It's simply pointing out that legalizing something will increase the impact on society as a result of increasing the accessibility. If society is fine with that impact then so be it but that's a far cry from pretending that increasing access to something won't result in increased effect from that something..

Depends on the demand and how elastic it is, which is determined by factors other than legality. Betel nut is legal in the US (and the UK I believe) with almost no effect, it's outlawed in Papua New Guinea and still a scourge.

 

[irish_thug]

Depends on the demand and how elastic it is, which is determined by factors other than legality. Betel nut is legal in the US (and the UK I believe) with almost no effect, it's outlawed in Papua New Guinea and still a scourge.

Isn't that the nut that makes it look like your gums are bleeding all the time?

 

[Cid]

You're arguing things I don't care about based on things I didn't say by applying logic that doesn't make sense.

Compare buying illegal guns to buying legal ones. Compare buying illegal drugs to buying legal drugs. Apples to apples. Not 2 different products in 2 different industries.

If your legal guns became illegal, they would be even harder to access than they are now. If your illegal drugs became legal, they would even easier to access than they are now. Apples to apples. The same product in the same industry with the legality being the only difference.

I can't really respond to the rest of your post because it's based on a premise that I've never stated which is "that illegal products are always easier to obtain than legal ones". I've never stated that so I won't argue with you over it. .

Why? They're both products.

Do you think apples are harder to buy than oranges? They're different products.

Obtaining any substance is dictated by legislation. You stated that it's easier to buy legal drugs than illegal ones when the distinction you claim is there isn't. Saying it's apples and oranges doesn't really change that.

 

[panamaican]

Depends on the demand and how elastic it is, which is determined by factors other than legality. Betel nut is legal in the US (and the UK I believe) with almost no effect, it's outlawed in Papua New Guinea and still a scourge.

I'm speaking in terms of the target population within the same legal/economic system, not across different countries. Legalizing in Papua New Guinea would increase access and increase its effect in Papua New Guinea. Making it illegal in the U.S. would restrict access and decrease effect in the U.S.

 

[Ruprecht]

Isn't that the nut that makes it look like your gums are bleeding all the time?

Yeah and has a good chance of giving you cancer.

 

[nostradumbass]

Thanks for informing me what my thread is about, I’m getting up there in age and could need a reminder!

Harm reduction, many drug addicts receive less harmful alternatives to help them break free from their addiction!

Legalizing drugs removes stigma, which in turn makes it easier for addicts to seek out help!

Law-enforcement can be used for better purposes than targeting users!

Taxation of drugs can be used to combat addiction, rehabilitation, information!

The alternative is that criminals get the money.

I like you, dude. Don't make me do this.

You're straight up wrong. You can't make a thread saying the last legal drug is ruining society, then 1 sentence later claim the solution is legalizing more drugs.

I'm gonna go easy on you, but you are wrong.

 

[irish_thug]

Yeah and has a good chance of giving you cancer.

No thank you. Even if it gave you a 6 foot erection I'd still pass. That bloody mouth look is disgusting.