Alcohol and tobacco are by far the biggest threat to human welfare of all addictive drugs

What's really moderate drinking? Are we including caffeine as a drug?

Few drinks once in a while. That's less harmful than consuming any amount of most drugs.

And I wouldn't include caffeine as a drug. But too much can be bad.

 
I doubt it. Criminalising it in PNG (2009) had no measurable effect on supply or demand (it's impossible to police in most of the country), whereas the trend towards viewing it as something only done by those that are poor, ignorant and rural in most of SE Asia has seen the use drop dramatically regardless of legality.
Social/cultural changes have a greater impact than legality, although they often go hand in hand.

Users should be targeted. Not targeting users is how you end up with people shooting up in public, dirty and crazy hobos everywhere, strung out people walking around cities, and dirty needles littering sidewalks and playgrounds. There should be a stigma against users and laws against them so that they can be prosecuted and removed from public view. I've lived in cities that don't enforce drug possession laws and they end up with terrible homeless -- the crazy, non-showering kind -- problems and people not hiding their drug use and their drugs.

You're worried about the drug users. I'm worried about the drugs' effects on the public non-users and cities. That effect isn't dependent on how many drug users there are. That effect is dependent on how visible the drug users make their drug use.
In 1988, Sweden criminalized the use of drugs and the responsible government agency for studying crime in Sweden, the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention conducted an evaluation of the change of laws, they drew the following conclusions;

* The data doesn't show that fewer people use drugs as a result of the criminalization.
* The only verifiable change is that the police shifted focus from dealers to users (this was not the intention behind the criminalization of drug use).
* Approximately 75-80% of those that are charged with drug related crimes are users, not dealers.

Furthermore, Sweden has among the highest death toll of drug use in the EU per capita.
 
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Links:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/add.14234

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...is-cocaine-amphetamines-opioids-a8345741.html

Perhaps we should wage war on tobacco and alcohol instead of illegal drugs...

Also in before someone claims that the war on drugs is the reason for the above findings.
Not surprising, alcohol and tobacco are a scourge. And yet, in the West one is highly maligned while the other is heavily promoted. I'm not saying we should ban either but we should heavily restrict them. In my ideal society liquor stores would be the only place you could purchase alcohol and and zoning laws would keep them them far from schools, parks, residential areas etc. I'd also like to see crimes where alcohol was a factor, like DUIs and domestic violence, being severely punished.

In the West we've already decided to go after tobacco and essentially dismantle the public culture around it. Nowadays its really in the developing world that tobacco companies see growth as tobacco consumption in the developed world has plummeted. We need to do the same for alcohol.

And as someone who smokes pot I have to say I feel the same for it. Its generally less harmful and it does have medical benefits but even still, I don't want to see it widely accepted. I don't want to see billboard ads for dispensaries or Amsterdam style coffee shops, I just want to be able to smoke it without having to worry about being arrested. I don't need people to endorse or accept this vice of mine, just a bare minimum level of legal tolerance for it.
 
It's more difficult to buy illegal drugs than it is to buy alcohol or tobacco. To illustrate - direct me to the illegal drugs section of your local supermarket or the illegal drugs store in your town. Then direct me to the tobacco/alcohol section in those same stores or the tobacco/alcohol retailers in that same town.

The rest of your post doesn't have anything to do with my post. We have restrictions on tobacco and alcohol. Restrictions on legalized drugs wouldn't be that different and would still result in greater access by the general public. Legal substances are more accessible than illegal substances and thus the negative impacts will be greater.

Comparing legal to illegal is an apples to oranges comparison.
I think that's generally true but perhaps the difference isn't as big as you think. I found it easier to buy weed in middle school than alcohol. Who would sell alcohol to a 13 year old? Not many legal establishments. But getting weed off my friend wasn't too hard, just had to ask.

And here's another anecdote for ya. I had to drop a relative off in a distant city for a job. When we got there we toured the city a bit and while walking down a residential neighborhood we ran into a friendly local who struck up a conversation with us. In the middle of the conversation I could smell someone smoking weed at one of the houses and at the end of the conversation the guy offered us weed. Within 24 hours of being in a completely unfamiliar city we were able to find a contact for weed, that's how easy it is.

Harder drugs are a different story but weed is pretty ubiquitous at this point.
 
Not surprising, alcohol and tobacco are a scourge. And yet, in the West one is highly maligned while the other is heavily promoted. I'm not saying we should ban either but we should heavily restrict them. In my ideal society liquor stores would be the only place you could purchase alcohol and and zoning laws would keep them them far from schools, parks, residential areas etc. I'd also like to see crimes where alcohol was a factor, like DUIs and domestic violence, being severely punished.

In the West we've already decided to go after tobacco and essentially dismantle the public culture around it. Nowadays its really in the developing world that tobacco companies see growth as tobacco consumption in the developed world has plummeted. We need to do the same for alcohol.

And as someone who smokes pot I have to say I feel the same for it. Its generally less harmful and it does have medical benefits but even still, I don't want to see it widely accepted. I don't want to see billboard ads for dispensaries or Amsterdam style coffee shops, I just want to be able to smoke it without having to worry about being arrested. I don't need people to endorse or accept this vice of mine, just a bare minimum level of legal tolerance for it.
I co-sign!

I have used ecstasy and cocaine in the past but today, I'm almost an absolutist. I have a glass of champagne on a special occasion but nothing more than that.

I'm all for legalization and decriminalization but I don't want any drug to be promoted, I agree with zoning laws, I want proper information to students from an early age about the pros and cons (not propaganda because children today are too knowledgeable on the subject).

As for your suggestion that alcohol should only be sold in liquor stores, that is how it works in Sweden where the government has a monopoly on selling strong alcohol. Swedes still drink more than many other European countries, which I believe is linked to different cultures and if regular food stores could sell strong alcohol, maybe Swedes would drink even more than they do today.
 
I think that's generally true but perhaps the difference isn't as big as you think. I found it easier to buy weed in middle school than alcohol. Who would sell alcohol to a 13 year old? Not many legal establishments. But getting weed off my friend wasn't too hard, just had to ask.

And here's another anecdote for ya. I had to drop a relative off in a distant city for a job. When we got there we toured the city a bit and while walking down a residential neighborhood we ran into a friendly local who struck up a conversation with us. In the middle of the conversation I could smell someone smoking weed at one of the houses and at the end of the conversation the guy offered us weed. Within 24 hours of being in a completely unfamiliar city we were able to find a contact for weed, that's how easy it is.

Harder drugs are a different story but weed is pretty ubiquitous at this point.

I think the difference is quite large.

I'm sure that in middle school, if you went to a friend's house, alcohol was available via the parent's stash. But did you know your friend's weed dealer and without your friend's access, could you have found a dealer as easily as you could have found a liquor seller (I think you can get beer in most supermarkets) and I'd gamble money that the vast majority of your friend's parents had liquor in the house. We all know that middle school kids are already drinking at high rates. Rates that probably exceed their use of illegal drugs, including weed.

And while you may have easily found a weed contact, it was predicated on luck (sniffing it out from someone who happened to be smoking while you were nearby). You could have found alcohol even easier, within seconds of entering the city, google would have directed you to a seller.

And legal weed would be even easier to obtain than the current options.
 
I think the difference is quite large.

I'm sure that in middle school, if you went to a friend's house, alcohol was available via the parent's stash. But did you know your friend's weed dealer and without your friend's access, could you have found a dealer as easily as you could have found a liquor seller (I think you can get beer in most supermarkets) and I'd gamble money that the vast majority of your friend's parents had liquor in the house. We all know that middle school kids are already drinking at high rates. Rates that probably exceed their use of illegal drugs, including weed.

And while you may have easily found a weed contact, it was predicated on luck (sniffing it out from someone who happened to be smoking while you were nearby). You could have found alcohol even easier, within seconds of entering the city, google would have directed you to a seller.

And legal weed would be even easier to obtain than the current options.
It wasn't just that I smelled it, the guy openly offered us weed. Its definitely easier to get alcohol but I'm saying with weed the difference might not be as large as you think, at least for some populations like students for instance.
 
Links:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/add.14234

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...is-cocaine-amphetamines-opioids-a8345741.html

Perhaps we should wage war on tobacco and alcohol instead of illegal drugs...

Also in before someone claims that the war on drugs is the reason for the above findings.

What exactly is the angle here?

Anyone who is passingly familiar with US vices would know this: 70% of Americans drink alcohol (with half of that engaging in binge drinking) and 20% of Americans use tobacco.
 
I co-sign!

I have used ecstasy and cocaine in the past but today, I'm almost an absolutist. I have a glass of champagne on a special occasion but nothing more than that.

I'm all for legalization and decriminalization but I don't want any drug to be promoted, I agree with zoning laws, I want proper information to students from an early age about the pros and cons (not propaganda because children today are too knowledgeable on the subject).
I very rarely drink and I'd like to keep it that way. I pretty much only drink with a certain friend of mine and that's about it and even then I often refuse when he offers.
As for your suggestion that alcohol should only be sold in liquor stores, that is how it works in Sweden where the government has a monopoly on selling strong alcohol. Swedes still drink more than many other European countries, which I believe is linked to different cultures and if regular food stores could sell strong alcohol, maybe Swedes would drink even more than they do today.
That's interesting, wasn't aware of that. There's only so much policy can do and as you allude to at some point it comes down to culture. But culture can change, as evidenced by the increasingly taboo image of smoking.
 
What exactly is the angle here?

Anyone who is passingly familiar with US vices would know this: 70% of Americans drink alcohol (with half of that engaging in binge drinking) and 20% of Americans use tobacco.
SOJ didn't hash that but I think the issue here is that things like opioids, weed, etc. are politically charged topics whereas no one really gives alcohol much thought at all and due to a host of reasons alcohol is doing way more to ruin lives than probably all illegal drugs combined (leaving aside damage done by black markets).

There's a lot of talk about the opioid epidemic and virtually nothing on an alcohol epidemic.
 
The problem is the promotion of alcohol and the fact that it's associated with violence in public and at home. Objectively, it's a hard drug, but it's promoted like a harmless soft drug.

Did you know quitting alcohol without the help of a doctor is more dangerous than quitting heroin?

Easy, over 100 million americans drink alcohol in some form. How many million domestic abuse cases from alcohol occur each year? 5 million? 10 million? 20 million?
 
Why would anyone live in the city without a gasmask? Walk along a road with heavy traffic? Thats a lot of smokes right there.

Keep telling yourself they're the same. My dad died of cancer. Not only did it take him early, the last 5+ years of his life were miserable. It's not just that they're killing you, there's a good chance it will be a long, miserable end.

Good luck. But hey, at least you're cool.
 
Keep telling yourself they're the same. My dad died of cancer. Not only did it take him early, the last 5+ years of his life were miserable. It's not just that they're killing you, there's a good chance it will be a long, miserable end.

Good luck. But hey, at least you're cool.

1. Never said I smoked

2. Massively polluted areas of inner cities are certainly as bad for you as smoking

3. Chiiiil Winston
 
1. Never said I smoked

2. Massively polluted areas of inner cities are certainly as bad for you as smoking

3. Chiiiil Winston

I don't live in a city, worst smell here is when the Amish spray the fields. I'm pretty the manure didn't give my dad cancer.

So, you're just confrontational then?
 
Links:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/add.14234

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...is-cocaine-amphetamines-opioids-a8345741.html

Perhaps we should wage war on tobacco and alcohol instead of illegal drugs...

Also in before someone claims that the war on drugs is the reason for the above findings.

Great thread! 1 day away and to many pages to read. LOL

Some thoughts I have.

- As I´m familiar with both Swedish and Danish lifestyle, I think it´s rather odd to come back to Sweden and the special stores to buy alcohol. But that is the beauty of being close neighbours and still be different in many aspects of life. Still I think it´s a good Idea for Sweden to enforce special shops to buy it. Maybe we need a caring guide line, so we don´t overstep our personal limits.

- I´m a bit radical on this one. It´s good that we have fewer and fewer public areas where people can smoke cigarettes. But I would like to have an absoule message like the one with fossil free cars in 2030. Why not a tobacco free Sweden in 2030? What good comes from smoking a pack of cigarettes per day?

- Back to Denmark again. We should in Sweden enforce special animal fat and sugar taxes like they do over the Sound. If we could somehow lower our total intake of these 2, our healthcare cost would lower dramatically.

Cheers, fellow swede
 
Throughout the 10,000 or so years that humans have been drinking fermented beverages, they’ve also been arguing about their merits and demerits. The debate still simmers today, with a lively back-and-forth over whether alcohol is good for you or bad for you.


It’s safe to say that alcohol is both a tonic and a poison. The difference lies mostly in the dose. Moderate drinking seems to be good for the heart and circulatory system, and probably protects against type 2 diabetes and gallstones. Heavy drinking is a major cause of preventable death in most countries. In the U.S., alcohol is implicated in about half of fatal traffic accidents. Heavy drinking can damage the liver and heart, harm an unborn child, increase the chances of developing breast and some other cancers, contribute to depression and violence, and interfere with relationships.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutrit...-to-consume-in-moderation/alcohol-full-story/
Did you not see the part in my source that clearly stated the benefits were based on outdated methods of research?
 
I don't live in a city, worst smell here is when the Amish spray the fields. I'm pretty the manure didn't give my dad cancer.

So, you're just confrontational then?

Not at all. You were the one getting all pissy because your dad got cancer.
 
Great thread! 1 day away and to many pages to read. LOL

Some thoughts I have.

- As I´m familiar with both Swedish and Danish lifestyle, I think it´s rather odd to come back to Sweden and the special stores to buy alcohol. But that is the beauty of being close neighbours and still be different in many aspects of life. Still I think it´s a good Idea for Sweden to enforce special shops to buy it. Maybe we need a caring guide line, so we don´t overstep our personal limits.

- I´m a bit radical on this one. It´s good that we have fewer and fewer public areas where people can smoke cigarettes. But I would like to have an absoule message like the one with fossil free cars in 2030. Why not a tobacco free Sweden in 2030? What good comes from smoking a pack of cigarettes per day?

- Back to Denmark again. We should in Sweden enforce special animal fat and sugar taxes like they do over the Sound. If we could somehow lower our total intake of these 2, our healthcare cost would lower dramatically.

Cheers, fellow swede
Interesting reflections!

I wholeheartedly agree that it's interesting to compare to similar nations like Denmark. I have read that Danish people drinks the most alcohol in the EU. But only measuring consumption doesn't paint the whole picture. Perhaps Danish people consume alcohol more often but less at each time compared to Swedes?

As for tobacco, I think Sweden has the fewest smokers in the EU and I think that success can be contributed to taxation and proper information as well as not glamorizing smoking in media. That is the model I think we should enact when it comes to illegal drugs as well.
 
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