International AG Bill Barr : China "engaged in a full-court blitzkrieg" against the U.S. Our biggest threat

[ShinkanPo]

I dont usually read South China Morning post. So because I know they are Honk Kong based New it never occurd to me until recently hiw Pro CCP they are.

 

[MVelsor]

Except China has and does steal our intellectual property, our tech, our private data, and has been caught planting backdoors to facilitate all of that. They are our enemy.

You must stop the Chiners full court press! You must rebound! Yiu neeed to stop the chips!

Who wanna test, y'all? C.C.P. aka Commu-nest y'all, guard your chest y'all, nothing can protect y'all... from buckshots on down to the rest y'all, we running through your set y'all, fuck the US y'all, we be the best y'all yes yes y'all! Crack skulls North South East and West y'all, ready to wet y'all, place your bottom dollar bets y'all chest will become messed if you flex y'all, nevertheless y'all, lock it down with the full court press y'all.

Spoiler

U S A! USA!
Good they can't do it without basically stealing it. I'll look it up, they had to do a Manhattan project just to be able to develop ball point pens on their own.

South China Morning post.

 

[ElKarlo]

No surprise Trump can cut them off. Took them everything to make pens

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bu...red-out-how-to-make-ballpoint-pens-2017-1?amp

 

[MicroBrew]

No surprise Trump can cut them off. Took them everything to make pens

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/china-has-finally-figured-out-how-to-make-ballpoint-pens-2017-1?amp

I read that several months ago, and thought it was hilarious.

Everyone keeps touting China's manufacturing capability but they would be nothing without Western and Japanese industrial technology and processes.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

No surprise Trump can cut them off. Took them everything to make pens

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/china-has-finally-figured-out-how-to-make-ballpoint-pens-2017-1?amp

I see you're still using Google. If you hate China as much as I do stop using Google as your search engine.

 

[ElKarlo]

I read that several months ago, and thought it was hilarious.

Everyone keeps touting China's manufacturing capability but they would be nothing without Western and Japanese industrial technology and processes.

Yep. This is like 1950s Bulgarian technology.
If the west doesn't give it to them or let it get stolen China has nothing.

 

[ElKarlo]

I see you're still using Google. If you hate China as much as I do stop using Google as your search engine.

I usually do. I use duckduckgo a lot. But sometimes it can't find stuff.

 

[MVelsor]

I read that several months ago, and thought it was hilarious.

Everyone keeps touting China's manufacturing capability but they would be nothing without Western and Japanese industrial technology and processes.

Yep. This is like 1950s Bulgarian technology.
If the west doesn't give it to them or let it get stolen China has nothing.

That's because "everyone" by and large doesn't know jack shit. China's has the largest manufacturing sector on account of consumer goods but US industrial production is in great shape. There's no larger global producer of oil and gas, capital equipment and machinery, semiconductors or aerospace products. You know, all of the cool shit that makes the planet run.

 

[ElKarlo]

That's because "everyone" by and large doesn't know jack shit. China's has the largest manufacturing sector on account of consumer goods but US industrial production is in great shape. There's no larger global producer of oil and gas, capital equipment and machinery, semiconductors or aerospace products. You know, all of the cool shit that makes the planet run.

Yeah they make stuff, but most isn't made by a Chinese company. Save for volvo they don't export any real cars. They don't export any real construction equipment thays still the US, Japan, Sweden and Korea.
Besides tik to and that stuff, there aren't any Chinese brands that anyone outside if China would know. Alibaba is an exception though

 

[CrocopHKtotheballs]

US should have declared war on China when they poisoned our country with fenanyl, wasn't that an act of war?

 

[MVelsor]

They fucked the Islamic world up when it was actually at the forefront of the world's advancement, producing several great astronomers and mathematicians (Al-Khwarizmi, Al-Battani, Al-Birruni, Ibn Sahl, Jabir Hayyan, Alhazen, Omar Khayyam, et al). The Abbasid caliphate's opening of the Bayt Al-Hikam in Baghdad made it one of the premier intellectual hubs of the middle ages.

They did. The Islamic world had been stable foronf enough that they had a lot of science going on.
But the excuse that they ruined Bagdad forever is crap. It's mostly due to the Ottomans not caring and not putting any effort in Mesopotamia.

Once the mongols became Muslim they lost it all. Everything got rolled back and they weren't any different from the Turkic tribes. All those conquests with nothing to show for it.
At least Japan got some serious craftsmen from their 1590s invasion of Korea

I'd be interested in @Kafir-kun's take, and he should be in this thread anyway as it is.

 

[ElKarlo]

I'd be interested in @Kafir-kun's take, and he should be in this thread anyway as it is.

Would be interesting. As Bagdad was sacked in 1258. The ottomans never invested in their own stuff and it became a provisional city.
Like Italy getting the port of Trieste from AH. Even the Italians there didn't want to join Italy. As they went from the main port of an empire to basically Portland Maine. same thing with Baghdad under the Turks vs Persia

 

[Islam Imamate]

They did. The Islamic world had been stable foronf enough that they had a lot of science going on.
But the excuse that they ruined Bagdad forever is crap. It's mostly due to the Ottomans not caring and not putting any effort in Mesopotamia.

Once the mongols became Muslim they lost it all. Everything got rolled back and they weren't any different from the Turkic tribes. All those conquests with nothing to show for it.
At least Japan got some serious craftsmen from their 1590s invasion of Korea

I'd be interested in @Kafir-kun's take, and he should be in this thread anyway as it is.

Don't underestimate the damage the Mongols did to Baghdad, took centuries for the population to recover. In fact IIRC I think it Baghdad only reached its pre-1258 population in the 20th century. This is because the Mongols not only massacred a chunk of the population but they also destroyed Baghdad's irrigation system which was built in the "Golden Age" when Baghdad was a proper imperial capital, not only in name as it had become by the time the Mongol's sacked it, and therefore the city did not have the resources to build itself up again until much later and it never regained the glory it had as the capital of the Abbasid caliphate.

But yes boiling it down to just that is perhaps not accurate. One of the legacies the Mongol's left in the Muslim world is the emergence of a ruling Turkic military caste and I think one of the down sides of that is that the linguistic barrier had a negative impact on the system of patronage that the Abbasid set up. I also think the Turkic ruling castes had a much more martial culture that didn't value patronizing science and scholars as much as it did military investments and these castes were also often rather tumultuous so state funds were somewhat inefficiently spent on a mosaic of warring households.

Some of that is my own conjecture so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[ElKarlo]

Don't underestimate the damage the Mongols did to Baghdad, took centuries for the population to recover. In fact IIRC I think it Baghdad only reached its pre-1258 population in the 20th century. This is because the Mongols not only massacred a chunk of the population but they also destroyed Baghdad's irrigation system which was built in the "Golden Age" when Baghdad was a proper imperial capital, not only in name as it had become by the time the Mongol's sacked it, and therefore the city did not have the resources to build itself up again until much later and it never regained the glory it had as the capital of the Abbasid caliphate.

But yes boiling it down to just that is perhaps not accurate. One of the legacies the Mongol's left in the Muslim world is the emergence of a ruling Turkic military caste and I think one of the down sides of that is that the linguistic barrier had a negative impact on the system of patronage that the Abbasid set up. I also think the Turkic ruling castes had a much more martial culture that didn't value patronizing science and scholars as much as it did military investments and these castes were also often rather tumultuous so state funds were somewhat inefficiently spent on a mosaic of warring households.

Some of that is my own conjecture so take it with a grain of salt.

The Mongols were just a really bad form of Turkic nomadic invasions. I feel that without a massive empire that Baghdad would have lost population slower but still would have.
Without s massive empire it couldn't support such a population, especially in bad times.
And after the sack, there definitely were many instances of instability. Tamerlane was a good example. Even with its irrigation systems intact, they would have fallen into disrepair and the pop would have fallen.
I think the Turks were bad and never added to anything. They never did cultivate the arts and were basically nomadic Raiders who happened to rule an empire. The jannisairys were a dumb mean and unstable institution that took away from everything else.
As much as I don't like Islam, the middle east would have been better off with the Qing like Turks leading them into the 20th century.

 

[Islam Imamate]

The Mongols were just a really bad form of Turkic nomadic invasions. I feel that without a massive empire that Baghdad would have lost population slower but still would have.
Without s massive empire it couldn't support such a population, especially in bad times.
And after the sack, there definitely were many instances of instability. Tamerlane was a good example. Even with its irrigation systems intact, they would have fallen into disrepair and the pop would have fallen.
I think the Turks were bad and never added to anything. They never did cultivate the arts and were basically nomadic Raiders who happened to rule an empire. The jannisairys were a dumb mean and unstable institution that took away from everything else.
As much as I don't like Islam, the middle east would have been better off with the Qing like Turks leading them into the 20th century.

I think you are underestimating the cultural contributions of the Ottomans but overall I do think the Mongol conquests and the era of Turkic dominance it brought to the Middle East did have some less than desired effects on cultural and scientific production in the Islamic Middle East.

 

[ElKarlo]

I think you are underestimating the cultural contributions of the Ottomans but overall I do think the Mongol conquests and the era of Turkic dominance it brought to the Middle East did have some less than desired effects on cultural and scientific production in the Islamic Middle East.

True the Ottomans did advance things, but for their massive empire, their contributions are very small.

I read years go about a European going to Syria in the 1700s. He said he only encountered a few books in his entire trip there. It was 15 years ago. But I think he saw like four Korans and a 101 Arabian nights.

The Turks had control of many centers of learning, Constantinople, Damascus, Cairo, Alexandria, Antioch. They did little with it and the Italian states at the same time, I'd say out produced the ottomans culturally.
They also turned the Balkans into a bandit ridden waste. The blood taxes forced people to choose their own children or else. Many went to the mountains and caused lawlessness.
The Ottomans were focused on building an empire and expensive wars of expansions. They were the size of the Romans yet contributed far less and and didn't have it's capital attacked and underwent no real invasions til their I'll fated 1683 Vienna campaign.

 

[tonni]

But the mongols used cheat codes. They got involved in a land war in Asia and won. Invaded Russia in the winter and won. Guys definitely had game genies hooked up to their horses.

The idea of unconquerable Russia is a myth anyway

 

[ElKarlo]

The idea of unconquerable Russia is a myth anyway

I know. WWI showed that it indeed was mortal.

 

[ShinkanPo]

Mongols always curious why they are very rapey.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Don't underestimate the damage the Mongols did to Baghdad, took centuries for the population to recover. In fact IIRC I think it Baghdad only reached its pre-1258 population in the 20th century. This is because the Mongols not only massacred a chunk of the population but they also destroyed Baghdad's irrigation system which was built in the "Golden Age" when Baghdad was a proper imperial capital, not only in name as it had become by the time the Mongol's sacked it, and therefore the city did not have the resources to build itself up again until much later and it never regained the glory it had as the capital of the Abbasid caliphate.

But yes boiling it down to just that is perhaps not accurate. One of the legacies the Mongol's left in the Muslim world is the emergence of a ruling Turkic military caste and I think one of the down sides of that is that the linguistic barrier had a negative impact on the system of patronage that the Abbasid set up. I also think the Turkic ruling castes had a much more martial culture that didn't value patronizing science and scholars as much as it did military investments and these castes were also often rather tumultuous so state funds were somewhat inefficiently spent on a mosaic of warring households.

Some of that is my own conjecture so take it with a grain of salt.

I believe the Turkic people came before the Mongols and they took power because middle easterners had that terrible idea of relying on military slaves or otherwise foreigners.
Saladin's army, for example, was composed mostly of Turks.
That stuff goes back to Carthage and their mercenary armies. It seems that the Middle East hydraulic empires had a very urbane, very peaceful (domesticated) civil society. With the exception of the Bedouins. Europe, in contrast, had a large rural population that acted as cannon fodder.
It makes sense you do not want to arm people living in crowded cities.

The Mongols were just a really bad form of Turkic nomadic invasions. I feel that without a massive empire that Baghdad would have lost population slower but still would have.
Without s massive empire it couldn't support such a population, especially in bad times.
And after the sack, there definitely were many instances of instability. Tamerlane was a good example. Even with its irrigation systems intact, they would have fallen into disrepair and the pop would have fallen.
I think the Turks were bad and never added to anything. They never did cultivate the arts and were basically nomadic Raiders who happened to rule an empire. The jannisairys were a dumb mean and unstable institution that took away from everything else.
As much as I don't like Islam, the middle east would have been better off with the Qing like Turks leading them into the 20th century.

FWIW, many scholars of China believe the Qing Manchus were one of the reasons China trailed behind the West. These nomads didn't care as much about science and technology as the Han Chinese. Being nomads and few in numbers they also didn't care too much about arming a powerful infantry composed mostly of Hans. They preferred to keep an elite of cavalry that could travel fast and quash rebellions. That obviously didn't work when Europeans and later on the Japanese attacked them with modern weaponry.