After Slapping Hands

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by MyBodyHurts, Jul 23, 2010.

  1. MyBodyHurts

    MyBodyHurts Blue Belt

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    Hi,

    I've been training jiu jitsu for about a year now. There are two problems I have consistently been coming across and was hoping some people could offer advice.

    (1) When starting on your knees and after slapping hands, what possible initial starts help with people who are larger than you? I often find myself against bigger guys who I know (after rolling with them a bunch of times) are always going to try to be on top. This often ends up leading to a muscle match because if I try to go up on my knees or what not they won't pull guard, but rather will stand up, pushing and trying to throw me. I'm really focused on technique and my instructor has encouraged me not to muscle when rolling, in which case I end up pulling some kind of guard. Does this seem reasonable? I just feel genuinely confused about what to do once you slap with a larger person and they immediately go to their knees.

    (2) This sort of follows from the first. Lately, especially with newer guys, I've had some that will be in my half or closed guard that literally just lay on top of me. It was weird the first time it happened because with the more experienced guys they're always eventually looking to advance, practice different stuff, etc. A few weeks ago I started with a guy in my half guard (in order to practice some things) and he just laid on me grasping me what seemed like as hard as he could. He was so heavy and, while he didn't attempt to advance or do anything, its something that caught me off guard. If anyone has any advice on how to get out of such a position, I'd appreciate it. I'm assuming I could have muscled out but didn't want to do that.

    I appreciate any tips. Thanks!

    Chris
     
  2. superking

    superking Poet — Traveler — Soldier of Fortune

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    (1) Armdrags.

    (2) ?
     
  3. 879lexus

    879lexus Blue Belt

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    Something similar happened to me. I'm pretty new to BJJ. Instructor told me to do guard escape and the blue belt to do submissions.

    As soon as we started, I was in his guard, he bumped his hips up and I fell foward. He then cross grabbed my lapel and started to choke me. During that moment, I was like, this blue belt dude is trying to really choke me out. Since I'm new, my mentality is to stick to the technique and be nice/respectful to upper belts. After I couldn't breathe, I didn't want to tap, so out of survival and beefing up some courage, I jammed my forearm with all my weight down on his throat. He has me in his guard and within a second, he let go. I didn't want to be submitted like that from the guard. I am starting to realize, it's a rough sport and it's ok to hurt someone, if they're trying to hurt you. Even if they're a higher belt.
     
  4. bjjaz

    bjjaz Got the Rock...Time to Roll

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    Try to hit a sweep right off the bat if a big guy won't work his guard; you know push his knee sweep or some form of butterfly sweep.
     
  5. xcydal

    xcydal I am in here.

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    1. Wrestling - learn it. Or just pull gaurd.
     
  6. El Beebo

    El Beebo Blue Belt

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    Ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha aha ah aha ha haha...


    Seriously?
     
  7. Ergo

    Ergo Orange Belt

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    If they always want to play top, its pretty likely that their bottom game is not as good - like the other posters mentioned, arm drags work wonders. The other option is to see it as a challenge to get on top via sweep and punish their possible lack of a bottom game.

    Or if you're kinda wussy you could ask them to let you work top.
     
  8. Respeezy

    Respeezy Purple Belt

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    Just jump up , try a flying triangle, and if it doesnt work you can still always pull guard.
     
  9. keynote

    keynote Purple Belt

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    You're that guy.
     
  10. Respeezy

    Respeezy Purple Belt

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    To op, youre an idiot at first i didnt read your post well, but what youre saying is
    a guy just starts a submission on you and you try to hurt him, by elbowing him in the throat.
    No even before, you already tried to "hurt " him on purpose, like you said.

    Way to be nice/ respectfull to upper belts or anyone.
     
  11. 879lexus

    879lexus Blue Belt

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    I didn't elbow him in the throat, I jammed my elbow in his throat and put my weight down on it. I did not hit him in the throat. I couldn't breathe and he couldn't breathe. Isn't that the same thing? I used the wrong word in my original post 'hurt'.
     
  12. koolinkunming

    koolinkunming Silver Belt

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    I didn't read too much. I'm a little drunk and it's 2:30 am. But I try to pull guard and then work from there. Sometimes you can get the advantage from guard and go from there.

    For bigger guys, there's a sacfrice throw from the knees that you can do that's hard to explain step by step that can be done even on bigger guys. Start kneeling on one knee, then the back leg (that's on the ground) move toward your perpendicular leg and fall back and lift the forward leg up to lift the guy up over you as you fall back and then scramble to get on top of him.

    If a guy's in your half guard, get to full, then look for a sweep, eg scissor sweep. Then go from there.
     
  13. ohmalley

    ohmalley Blue Belt

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    i sense you may catch a lot of flack for this, but here's what i hope will be helpful feedback:

    yes, it's true: bjj *can* be a rough sport. you're using leverage and, in some cases, uncomfortable and painful techniques to subdue/submit your opponent. the blue belt was doing what he was supposed to do. it's not personal. of COURSE he was trying to choke you -- he was instructed to submit you! but if you let your ego dictate whether or not you tap out, i fear you may find yourself getting seriously injured (or embarassed! you might piss or shit yourself if you get put unconscious).

    if you're new and going against a blue belt, accept that he is GOING to tap you. there is a world of difference in experience and training time between you and him. the reason bjjers find it significant when a lower belt taps out a higher belt is because it doesn't happen often unless the higher belt is experimenting or working on getting out of bad positions. jiu jitsu is certainly impacted by natural gifts you may have (strength, speed, athleticism), but 90% of your progression is dictated one thing alone: time on the mat. generally speaking: the higher the belt, the more time on the mat! so the higher belt is supposed to tap you -- he's been doing it longer. he has more technical knowledge, and he's trained his body how to move so that he doesn't have to think about it -- it just comes naturally. IT'S NOT PERSONAL.

    you're going to hear a lot of ppl saying "leave your ego at the door". ppl here bandy that around like a blunt instrument, so much that it's almost meaningless, but there is a lot of truth in it. nobody ever completely leaves their ego at the door. it's not possible, not if you care about or take pride in what you do. but what i think is a more accurate suggestion is to re-prioritize your ego. realize that getting beat is the single most important part of your progression. it's the one thing that will make you get better faster than anything else. don't pride yourself in getting submissions or avoiding the tap; that will come as a natural consequence of your training. rather, take pride in getting your ass kicked and having the balls to keep showing up for more, to learn from your mistakes. before you know it you'll be tapping out other new guys with ease, and you'll realize that it's not really that big a deal.

    i can guarantee you that if that blue belt had submitted you, it wouldn't have been something he took a lot of pride in. it's not a big achievement to outmaneuver someone who doesn't really know how to play the game yet. remembering this may help you to take it less personally.

    finally, yes: it is ok to use techniques that will cause pain and discomfort. there is a certain amount of "meanness" that is just part of the game. but it's not personal, it's just technique. if you make it personal and start jabbing your elbows in ppls necks and faces instead of using technique to avoid submissions, you're going to piss ppl off (do this on the street if you're attacked and don't know what else to do -- NOT in the gym). and when you piss higher belts off, they may be inclined to teach you a lesson. that's never fun.

    in all, your introduction to bjj culture and training can be one of the biggest challenges you face as a white belt (i'm a white belt too, so at least that's how it was for me). it can take a little time to get the hang of what's considered ok and what's not, what things are considered foul play and what's considered fair game. and just getting used to getting smashed all the time, and learning how to process it emotionally. bjj is not easy. it's hard on the body, it's hard on the mind, and it's hard on the ego. but the better you get at it, the stronger all these parts of you become. it's really an amazing journey.

    welcome!

    p.s. i'm kinda surprised that blue belt didn't hip out and armbar you!
     
  14. Handsome Rob

    Handsome Rob Orange Belt

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    With big guys you just gotta get used to working off your back, because if they know how to wrestle thats where you end up.
     
  15. Jagcorps_esq

    Jagcorps_esq Red Belt

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    Or you could just use technique, tap when you're caught and not be a moron?
     
  16. dat1978

    dat1978 Brown Belt

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    and here's the problem i see with people in bjj. people do not know humility and have egos that make them afraid to tap. instead they just muscle everything and risk injuring people.

    and i don't think he was trying to hurt you, it was a choke and if you get caught you are supposed to tap, then slap hands and start again.

    i hate rolling with people like you.
     
  17. se7en-

    se7en- White Belt

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    snap the head down asap if you want to work top game and they wont let you or go for an arm drag. If these two fail I like to work on my bottom half sweeps and pull bottom half guard. Something I picked up from mr Bravo. I actually suggest checking out dudes bottom half game I picked alot up from it.
     
  18. Jagcorps_esq

    Jagcorps_esq Red Belt

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    Same here. I still have a strong sense of guilt whenever I choke someone out. I used to just let go, but my instructor told me to stop doing that because it's important for me to know whether or not they weren't tapping because I didn't have it on right.

    I always felt like it was just me ego that made me hold the choke until they gave up or went out.

    Now, I sort of play that by ear. If they are experienced, then I hold the choke. They know better and should have the understanding necessary to tap. If they are inexperienced, I let go and transition to something else....but always a choke and always one tighter than the last so that they have no choice.

    I wonder though if that is appropriate. I don't want to teach new people the wrong thing, making them think that they escaped or that they can "hold on" through a choke.
     
  19. HardEight

    HardEight Blue Belt

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    My guess is the blue belt was doing what he was supposed to do and you want to be a prick about it and after he realized he was about to be in a spaz match he let off the choke. He was generous, you should be gracious he didn't take your arm home with him.
     
  20. Mike Wilson Jr.

    Mike Wilson Jr. Amateur Fighter

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    Sounds like a candidate for knee on face position.
     

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