Advantages of Japanese Jiu Jitsu vs BJJ ?

[No Skill Gap]

That's my one wristlock sub I can recall (about a year ago). I secured the kimura trap from half guard and was overly hellbent on finishing it. Other guy scrambled and was able to take my back. I held onto the kimura but wasn't able to turn into him or go anywhere with it (he was a strong dude) so I half-trolled him by moving my hand gripping his wrist down to the back of his hand and bent his wrist in before releasing it. We both laughed about it but he conceded it was a legit tap.

The two times I recall getting tapped were 1) from inside their triangle. I successfully defended multiple attempts to tighten the triangle, convert to triangle armbar and failed attempts at teepee choke. Got cocky and thought I could just hang out and wait for his legs to gas but he surprised me out of nowhere by bending my wrist in and getting a tap; 2) from inside closed guard I posted on instructor's sternum to stand up and he anchored the hand in place and crunched in to bend my wrist back and get a tap.



Agree with Danaher and that's why wristlocks are more viable from standing. But on the ground, they're definitely viable from the three positions I mentioned above (and possibly others) because you've already locked down opponent's arm and torso and most wouldn't expect a wristlock from there.

If wristlocks are your only submission, your overall sub % will suck because yeah, they're only possible from certain positions. But that's true of any submission technique. The more techniques you're proficient at, the more openings you'll be able to capitalize on. But no one can be expert at everything, even world champs have preferred techniques. @Kforcer's point about toeholds and leglocks being underutilized for years makes this point. I know how to apply kneebars, heel hooks, ankle locks and toe holds but rarely get them because I'm not used to actively hunting for them and seeing openings. I mean I'll go for a straight ankle lock or an outside heel hook if it's staring me in the face but I'm much more comfortable going for upper body submissions from top control due to wrestling and Judo background.

"No one can be an expert at everything..."

Sure but if wrist locks were effective then we'd see people using them all the time, it's just that simple really.

I was the one who brought up the leglock game earlier actually, and yes you can use it both ways. But even then, it's not like Lister didn't exist or Sambo or even Pancrase and shit. Leg locks were always effective, there just wasn't a system for them I guess as evidenced by Danaher and sport BJJ now.

I think it's fallacious to equate wrist locks and leg locks. With the latter, there was and is the real danger of crippling someone for life (prior to surgery advancing...think 90s-early 2000s) or something close. Putting someone on the shelf for 6-9 months, maybe they're never the same. That was and is a real outcome.

On top of the entire Brazillian cultural, BJJ cultural taboo on them. It was considered shameful, cowardly, pussy...cheap. As we all know. And sure in some ways I think wrist locks are considered cheesy, cheap, pussy ish. But they're just not the same at all. Again, when someone wins ADCC by wrist locking most of their opponents and constantly threatening the dreaded wrist lock then I will change my tune, that's prior to any evolution-revolution system meta changes. Just someone effectively using the sub.

Lister won the 2003 ADCC and had a heel hook + kneebar, I'm sure he threatened with leglocks in most if not all matches. That was almost 20 years ago. In 2011-2013 he was heel hooking a ton of people. This was well before the DDS and shit

 

[ChickenBrother]

"No one can be an expert at everything..."

Sure but if wrist locks were effective then we'd see people using them all the time, it's just that simple really.

I was the one who brought up the leglock game earlier actually, and yes you can use it both ways. But even then, it's not like Lister didn't exist or Sambo or even Pancrase and shit. Leg locks were always effective, there just wasn't a system for them I guess as evidenced by Danaher and sport BJJ now.

I think it's fallacious to equate wrist locks and leg locks. With the latter, there was and is the real danger of crippling someone for life (prior to surgery advancing...think 90s-early 2000s) or something close. Putting someone on the shelf for 6-9 months, maybe they're never the same. That was and is a real outcome.

On top of the entire Brazillian cultural, BJJ cultural taboo on them. It was considered shameful, cowardly, pussy...cheap. As we all know. And sure in some ways I think wrist locks are considered cheesy, cheap, pussy ish. But they're just not the same at all. Again, when someone wins ADCC by wrist locking most of their opponents and constantly threatening the dreaded wrist lock then I will change my tune, that's prior to any evolution-revolution system meta changes. Just someone effectively using the sub.

Lister won the 2003 ADCC and had a heel hook + kneebar, I'm sure he threatened with leglocks in most if not all matches. That was almost 20 years ago. In 2011-2013 he was heel hooking a ton of people. This was well before the DDS and shit

As I said, I don't think wristlocks will ever be a primary, high % sub initiated on the mat. But if more grapplers trained them to a high level, absolutely we'd see more of them than we do now. But as I mentioned, everyone has finite time to devote to training and most will prioritize moves and positions they're already familiar with. A lot of wrestlers like arm triangles. Judo guys like armbars and ezekiels. Sambo guys have been doing leglocks since well before Lister made it sexy. If we ever get a top flight MMA or BJJ guy who hails from an Aikido base, I'd bet dollars to donuts he'd find a way to work wristlocks into his game. But given how most aikido is trained these days, we know that's unlikely.

Wristlocks are most viable from standing and their intended use is to subdue someone before it escalates into a fistfight. That's how LEOs use them. If you're already in a fistfight, they're probably not your go to.

 

[No Skill Gap]

As I said, I don't think wristlocks will ever be a primary, high % sub initiated on the mat. But if more grapplers trained them to a high level, absolutely we'd see more of them than we do now. But as I mentioned, everyone has finite time to devote to training and most will prioritize moves and positions they're already familiar with. A lot of wrestlers like arm triangles. Judo guys like armbars and ezekiels. Sambo guys have been doing leglocks since well before Lister made it sexy. If we ever get a top flight MMA or BJJ guy who hails from an Aikido base, I'd bet dollars to donuts he'd find a way to work wristlocks into his game. But given how most aikido is trained these days, we know that's unlikely.

Wristlocks are most viable from standing and their intended use is to subdue someone before it escalates into a fistfight. That's how LEOs use them. If you're already in a fistfight, they're probably not your go to.

Yeah my bad not trying to be argumentative, but even now...lol I have to say

I think LEOs would be better off doing something else besides wrist locks. Seems archaic and like how some police/military sometimes teach bullshit martial arts, seen it and Josh Fabia comically did some stuff with a military branch in some central american country

Just seems like police officers would definitely be better suited controlling a perp with wrestling/BJJ/Judo type shit, clinching up, taking them down with variable force instead of wrist locking but whatever.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Yeah my bad not trying to be argumentative, but even now...lol I have to say

I think LEOs would be better off doing something else besides wrist locks. Seems archaic and like how some police/military sometimes teach bullshit martial arts, seen it and Josh Fabia comically did some stuff with a military branch in some central american country

Just seems like police officers would definitely be better suited controlling a perp with wrestling/BJJ/Judo type shit, clinching up, taking them down with variable force instead of wrist locking but whatever.

A former cop I train BJJ with responded to a call last year and was trying to de-escalate a drunk. The suspect swung at him and poked him in the eye (took several days to recover full vision). He said he reacted by tackling and slamming the perp to the ground before cuffing him. He got reprimanded for excessive force and voluntarily resigned soon after.

I don't know if a wristlock would have made sense there, but they look much more "compliant" to observers.

Aikido gets shit on a lot (somewhat deservedly) but some of the techniques are legit if done by a skilled, athletic person. Earlier in the thread I mentioned the aikido 7th dan (RIP) who taught a LEO self defense module I took as a HS wrestler in 1991. This guy's primary income was running an aikido school but he cross-trained BJJ with Rigan Machado, had rolled with Helio, was friends with Benny the Jet Urquidez, taught knees and elbows from thai plum clinch, grappled with wrestlers, etc. One of his students was a 250 lbs LEO and HW college wrestling all american. This dude went for wristlocks. If you tried to tie up with him from standing, he'd rip your hand off into kote gaeshi. He'd also get subs incorporating wrestling TD's into hammer locks and chicken wings on the ground.

The three standing wristlocks I learned to basic proficiency are kote gaeshi, nikyo and sankyo. The latter chains very well into a hammer lock come along while standing. With a solid wrestling or Judo base to go with it, all three can be very legit.

 

[Dece]

You'd think it would be far easier to get the wrist lock on someone with a glove on though too right? But sure maybe that's a reason.

I'd take the example even further, how many times do you see wrist locks work in higher level grappling? I'd say rarely ever. I'm not saying it's an entirely worthless thing, but it's just...very low % and I think it does get a bad reputation because a lot of bullshido martial arts use them too.

I don't know about grappling since I don't have a flo account. Still seems quite rare.

I hade a couple of MMA fights, with my hands wrapped I could barely bend them myself and I doubt somebody else would be able to do it to, especially if I'm also resisting it.

 

[Joe_Armstrong]

I'm also skeptical of time-in-grade requirements or overemphasis on belt rank in general. The best BJJ instructor I've had was officially only a purple belt at the time (plus Judo BB) but I saw him submit visiting BJJ BBs.

I think I'm old fashioned in that way.
Each belt is a fase in you growing to be a complete MArtist.
Each fase shouldn't be rushed.

Ofcourse there are exceptions.

 

[rmongler]

You have a point.
It you can ensure proper quality control then it is more well rounded as long as they do some live training and randori which was Judos innovation.

BJJ is basically useless vs more than one person or vs weapons and puts you in artificial situations that could get you killed in real life like going to the ground where bystanders may just boot you in the head with steel toe boots.
You can always just refine your techniques for a few good functional holds and chokes by watching the hundreds of vids out there nowadays if you want some added BJJ input.

Something like this may be what you are after.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jitsu_Foundation

Mongler-Jitsu is stronger than japanese jiu-jitsu, or any other martial art for that matter.

Why is is stronger? Simple. Mongler-Jitsu is defined as including every tactic, capacity, and procedure relevant to all arts of Mars in general, be it in the dojo, the battlefield, or the bedroom. Therefore, other martial arts are merely pale reflections that only grasp at the greater ideal that is Mongler-Jitsu, and likewise, one who is proficient in Mongler-Jitsu is also by definition a superior human specimen.

QED

 

[lechien]

When has a UFC fighter tapped to a wrist lock?

I'm sure it's happened, probably in like bronze age early UFC/MMA but I just don't think that's a technique that people really tap to in competition or in MMA. Where as heel hooks and leglocks people do tap, some don't and they get their knee's torn up like just someone might tough out an armbar.

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/most-common-ufc-submissions-with-graphs.2647639/

That's up to 2014, don't recall any wrist locks in MMA since then. I'm not saying wrist locks are total dogshit/bullshit, but the data shows they aren't really a super effect, debilitating submission that people will tap to. That chart is evidence of that. Much like a toe hold, where there was only 1 recorded sub from UFC 1 to 2013/2014, it's just not a sub people are going to tap to or get stopped/crippled by.

Hum...there is no wrist lock in MMA because you cannot wrist someone that has boxing wrap on his hand and wrist.

 

[CFGroup]

Hum...there is no wrist lock in MMA because you cannot wrist someone that has boxing wrap on his hand and wrist.

The kid's clearly here for attention by this point.

Bunch of people had to point that out leading to the conclusion he doesn't really understand what we are talking about.

Maybe back in UFC's-obvious tell you're a rookie, when that's your standard of what works-before gloves were introduced you could claim that, but it's been a long time. You could also claim that a hook kick "didn't work" because it took years for it to be seen in MMA, or that front snap kick that Machida and Silva used. Christ that's the first WB technique any kicking training starts with and it's been shown that the people who went blue in the face claiming it "didn't work" were dead wrong.

 

[GreatSaintGuillotine]

What, BJJ discovering that wristlocks actually work?

???

You realize wrist locks have always been a thing in bjj right?

 

[Espurgote]

Also... you guys are aware that Traditional Jujitsu isnt just about Wrist locks right?

 

[Joe_Armstrong]

Hey, I'm no wristlock expert.

 

[mattemate]

Even in Japan no one does JJJ. It's judo, BJJ, kendo, karate. A few people do aikido or other crap, but they're considered larpers even in Japan.

 

[Kforcer]

Even in Japan no one does JJJ. It's judo, BJJ, kendo, karate. A few people do aikido or other crap, but they're considered larpers even in Japan.

Koppo was very popular for a while in the early 90's. Wajyutsu, you could argue, is Japanese jiu jitsu. You could say it's basically just no-gi grappling, but...you could also say Brazilian jiu jitsu is "just" gi grappling.

 

[Espurgote]

Even in Japan no one does JJJ. It's judo, BJJ, kendo, karate. A few people do aikido or other crap, but they're considered larpers even in Japan.

yeah... it is indeed a "dying art"

 

[Joe_Armstrong]

A few people do aikido or other crap, but they're considered larpers even in Japan.

<45>

 

[Brazilian HKD]

JJJ has katanas,so there is that.

 

[Patrick Jane]

There did exist some oddities like the Lumax Cup tournaments though. Looked more like combat sambo than anything though.

 

[Kforcer]

There did exist some oddities like the Lumax Cup tournaments though. Looked more like combat sambo than anything though.

Well, what'd you expect it to look like? It was an open competition anyway though; Minowa, Kikuta, Egan Inoue, TK and many other familiar names all competed in it. Pretty consistently awesome action.