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"Japanese Jiu Jitsu" is a term about as broad as wǔshù. Techniques and training methods can vary greatly from school to school. Some only ever trained with one specific weapon.
Why all the interest in JJJ?
What, BJJ discovering that wristlocks actually work?
No shit Sherlock!
There's a ton of other stuff that works as MMA "discovered".
I saw that thread a couple of months ago. Everyone mumbling about how "sneaky" or "unfair" wrist locks are, like leg locking was a decade ago. Leg locking is a similar mechanics as locking up the wrists/ankle, elbows/knees and it's just you guys are slow knuckledragging on your bellies so you can catch them relatively easily. It'll take a lot more ingenuity and athleticism to catch wrists and elbows, but when you get that good you'll start damaging each other to the point of not being able to train or breakfall bailing out of them and looking like the stuff you laugh at because it looks to "easy" or "compliant".
Wrist locks are fast and they are brutal leaving competitors little time to react defensively, that's why Kano Sensei took Kansetsu Waza out of competition but made sure they were trained for grading in the full art of Judo.
Alright that's my salty rant....because I had to take two days off of training for the week.....
When has a UFC fighter tapped to a wrist lock?
I'm sure it's happened, probably in like bronze age early UFC/MMA but I just don't think that's a technique that people really tap to in competition or in MMA. Where as heel hooks and leglocks people do tap, some don't and they get their knee's torn up like just someone might tough out an armbar.
Find me one elite grappler or fighter that uses JJJ as their primary style. That tells you everything you need to know about it’s usefulness.
Did Judo and BJJ come from the sork? I think you know where I am going with this.
It will never happen because fighters wrap their hands and wrists.
You'd think it would be far easier to get the wrist lock on someone with a glove on though too right? But sure maybe that's a reason.
I'd take the example even further, how many times do you see wrist locks work in higher level grappling? I'd say rarely ever. I'm not saying it's an entirely worthless thing, but it's just...very low % and I think it does get a bad reputation because a lot of bullshido martial arts use them too.
Toe-holds are as powerful as any leglock. You can't boil things down to a simple chart about how often a moves been done in the UFC; there's a lot of factors, like whether or not people competing are fluent with the move in question or whether or not they've happened to see openings for it, etc.When has a UFC fighter tapped to a wrist lock?
I'm sure it's happened, probably in like bronze age early UFC/MMA but I just don't think that's a technique that people really tap to in competition or in MMA. Where as heel hooks and leglocks people do tap, some don't and they get their knee's torn up like just someone might tough out an armbar.
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/most-common-ufc-submissions-with-graphs.2647639/
That's up to 2014, don't recall any wrist locks in MMA since then. I'm not saying wrist locks are total dogshit/bullshit, but the data shows they aren't really a super effect, debilitating submission that people will tap to. That chart is evidence of that. Much like a toe hold, where there was only 1 recorded sub from UFC 1 to 2013/2014, it's just not a sub people are going to tap to or get stopped/crippled by.
I literally covered that argument.When has a UFC fighter tapped to a wrist lock?
I'm sure it's happened, probably in like bronze age early UFC/MMA but I just don't think that's a technique that people really tap to in competition or in MMA. Where as heel hooks and leglocks people do tap, some don't and they get their knee's torn up like just someone might tough out an armbar.
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/most-common-ufc-submissions-with-graphs.2647639/
That's up to 2014, don't recall any wrist locks in MMA since then. I'm not saying wrist locks are total dogshit/bullshit, but the data shows they aren't really a super effect, debilitating submission that people will tap to. That chart is evidence of that. Much like a toe hold, where there was only 1 recorded sub from UFC 1 to 2013/2014, it's just not a sub people are going to tap to or get stopped/crippled by.
I literally covered that argument.
Wrists and hands are tightly taped numbnuts. I just show a tenth of the speed of what my old crazy "Judo is a full MA art" coaches use to punish us with in my new Judo club and everyone is cringing and tapping like crazy . And I'm not even any good, just trained them for grading.
Everyone thought Shotokan was "useless" to train in 2004, everyone thought Tae Kwon Do was "useless" to train until 2012.
Going back in time when MMA was even less skilled in technique and athleticism doesn't prove something doesn't work, it only proves that the skill gap was to great for the competitors. I'm too lazy...and have to start training soon...to look up the examples of former MMA champs to be overshadowed by the next level of technique and skill.
As I said in my bored rant yesterday...
"It'll take a lot more ingenuity and athleticism to catch wrists and elbows, but when you get that good you'll start damaging each other to the point of not being able to train or breakfall bailing out of them and looking like the stuff you laugh at because it looks to "easy" or "compliant"."
The damage to necessity for competition ratio was too great for them to be acceptable for Randori. If BJJ ever gets good on the feet they will ban them too as that Jakare clip shows.
This is a lot of things, but ineffectual isn't one of them:
Yeah that's a cool vid, now genuine question, how many wrist locks did Jacare hit in ADCC?
He needed the gi to perform that technique. As I've said 5 times now, I never said wrist locks are entirely ineffective. They're just shit and low% relative to tons of other submissions, or maintaining control, or gnp if a real/MMA fight.
I just don't like the insinuation that wrist locks are some hidden magical art form that's truly effective, okay and where are all the wrist lockers in grappling? Why hasn't Danaher or someone like that dove into the wrist lock game and put out instructionals on wrist locks? I'm sure there are some bullshit-culty ones out there.
Here:
I think that's a good point.But on the ground they'll always be an opportunistic thing and for most grapplers/fighters, the investment drilling and perfecting them just isn't worth it. Same reason we don't see many Judo foot sweeps in MMA - the timing and mechanics takes years to master and they're not common in the two most popular MMA bases - wrestling and BJJ.
True."Japanese Jiu Jitsu" is a term about as broad as wǔshù. Techniques and training methods can vary greatly from school to school. Some only ever trained with one specific weapon.
Absolutely. Like I said, Sakuraba used to do it all the time to finish armbars.wristlocks are great at getting people to expose their arm, and if they don't...you just wristlock them.
Well, I certainly never said they were magical. But I think it is a vast oversimplification to say that because a submission is not currently seen, it is therefore ineffectual. There are trends in grappling; there's only so much time in the and it only makes sense that a vast majority of people are going to focus on familiarizing themselves with what's being done and training to react to it.
Simply because a certain set of moves become marginalized or less common doesn't mean they are less effective. It just means people aren't using the moves. Leglocks were never ineffectual, for example. They were just underutilized. Another issue is that the more marginalized a set of techniques become, the less likely that they will become weapons in the hands of top-flight athletes who can make them work. These things just happen.
Honestly, I don't think any set of submissions are "shit"; different circumstances render different submissions more effective and different grapplers will be more fluent with different submissions.
And as far as someone using a wristlock in high-level grappling, another example other than the Jacare one, would be Rocha-Held at Kasai Pro 3. It actually netted Rocha the quickest submission of the night, against a man who is certainly a world-class grappler:
I think that's a good point.
I was actually caught in a wristlock by Ryan Bow in training. He was going for a Kimura and I wasn't really sweating it, because I was sure I was strong enough to defend it and I was also confident in my ability to counter. Out of nowhere he wristlocked me. It hurt and almost felt like cheating. I think when you do them right, under the right circumstances, they can be great. I think there are a lot of examples like mine, where the situation you're accounting for is sharply and suddenly altered by the introduction of a wristlock.
Yeah that's a cool vid, now genuine question, how many wrist locks did Jacare hit in ADCC?
He needed the gi to perform that technique. As I've said 5 times now, I never said wrist locks are entirely ineffective. They're just shit and low% relative to tons of other submissions, or maintaining control, or gnp if a real/MMA fight.
I just don't like the insinuation that wrist locks are some hidden magical art form that's truly effective, okay and where are all the wrist lockers in grappling? Why hasn't Danaher or someone like that dove into the wrist lock game and put out instructionals on wrist locks? I'm sure there are some bullshit-culty ones out there.
Here: