Advantages of Japanese Jiu Jitsu vs BJJ ?

"Japanese Jiu Jitsu" is a term about as broad as wǔshù. Techniques and training methods can vary greatly from school to school. Some only ever trained with one specific weapon.
 
Why all the interest in JJJ?

What, BJJ discovering that wristlocks actually work?

No shit Sherlock!

There's a ton of other stuff that works as MMA "discovered".

I saw that thread a couple of months ago. Everyone mumbling about how "sneaky" or "unfair" wrist locks are, like leg locking was a decade ago. Leg locking is a similar mechanics as locking up the wrists/ankle, elbows/knees and it's just you guys are slow knuckledragging on your bellies so you can catch them relatively easily. It'll take a lot more ingenuity and athleticism to catch wrists and elbows, but when you get that good you'll start damaging each other to the point of not being able to train or breakfall bailing out of them and looking like the stuff you laugh at because it looks to "easy" or "compliant".

Wrist locks are fast and they are brutal leaving competitors little time to react defensively, that's why Kano Sensei took Kansetsu Waza out of competition but made sure they were trained for grading in the full art of Judo.

Alright that's my salty rant....because I had to take two days off of training for the week.....

When has a UFC fighter tapped to a wrist lock?

I'm sure it's happened, probably in like bronze age early UFC/MMA but I just don't think that's a technique that people really tap to in competition or in MMA. Where as heel hooks and leglocks people do tap, some don't and they get their knee's torn up like just someone might tough out an armbar.

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/most-common-ufc-submissions-with-graphs.2647639/

That's up to 2014, don't recall any wrist locks in MMA since then. I'm not saying wrist locks are total dogshit/bullshit, but the data shows they aren't really a super effect, debilitating submission that people will tap to. That chart is evidence of that. Much like a toe hold, where there was only 1 recorded sub from UFC 1 to 2013/2014, it's just not a sub people are going to tap to or get stopped/crippled by.
 
When has a UFC fighter tapped to a wrist lock?

I'm sure it's happened, probably in like bronze age early UFC/MMA but I just don't think that's a technique that people really tap to in competition or in MMA. Where as heel hooks and leglocks people do tap, some don't and they get their knee's torn up like just someone might tough out an armbar.

It will never happen because fighters wrap their hands and wrists.
 
Find me one elite grappler or fighter that uses JJJ as their primary style. That tells you everything you need to know about it’s usefulness.

Did Judo and BJJ come from the sork? I think you know where I am going with this.
 
No advantage as regards to training. Semi to no contact (including on the ground). No guard play, no qualified instructors in submission grappling by todays standards...

But at it's core, it's all jiujitsu..
 
Did Judo and BJJ come from the sork? I think you know where I am going with this.

yeah they came from it. Judo came from it because Kano was pissed at how ineffective JJJ was due to its lack of sparring.
 
It will never happen because fighters wrap their hands and wrists.

You'd think it would be far easier to get the wrist lock on someone with a glove on though too right? But sure maybe that's a reason.

I'd take the example even further, how many times do you see wrist locks work in higher level grappling? I'd say rarely ever. I'm not saying it's an entirely worthless thing, but it's just...very low % and I think it does get a bad reputation because a lot of bullshido martial arts use them too.
 
You'd think it would be far easier to get the wrist lock on someone with a glove on though too right? But sure maybe that's a reason.

I'd take the example even further, how many times do you see wrist locks work in higher level grappling? I'd say rarely ever. I'm not saying it's an entirely worthless thing, but it's just...very low % and I think it does get a bad reputation because a lot of bullshido martial arts use them too.

Wristlocks are possible in grappling - I literally tapped to one 2 weeks ago. But they're usually flukey and not common because most people don't train them. In the 4+ years I've been training BJJ at my current school IIRC I've caught someone exactly once with a wristlock and tapped to them twice. But LEOs use them all the time and they're especially effective if you have a strength advantage.

They're harder to initiate on the ground vs. standing but even so, their rarity has more to do with the high required level of mastery than to not being effective (they are). But on the ground they'll always be an opportunistic thing and for most grapplers/fighters, the investment drilling and perfecting them just isn't worth it. Same reason we don't see many Judo foot sweeps in MMA - the timing and mechanics takes years to master and they're not common in the two most popular MMA bases - wrestling and BJJ.
 
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When has a UFC fighter tapped to a wrist lock?

I'm sure it's happened, probably in like bronze age early UFC/MMA but I just don't think that's a technique that people really tap to in competition or in MMA. Where as heel hooks and leglocks people do tap, some don't and they get their knee's torn up like just someone might tough out an armbar.

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/most-common-ufc-submissions-with-graphs.2647639/

That's up to 2014, don't recall any wrist locks in MMA since then. I'm not saying wrist locks are total dogshit/bullshit, but the data shows they aren't really a super effect, debilitating submission that people will tap to. That chart is evidence of that. Much like a toe hold, where there was only 1 recorded sub from UFC 1 to 2013/2014, it's just not a sub people are going to tap to or get stopped/crippled by.
Toe-holds are as powerful as any leglock. You can't boil things down to a simple chart about how often a moves been done in the UFC; there's a lot of factors, like whether or not people competing are fluent with the move in question or whether or not they've happened to see openings for it, etc.

I've used toe-holds in competitions. They're no different than any other leglock. If you get it locked in and apply pressure, it can do serious damage if people don't tap. I actually elicited a scream from a guy with a toe-hold in a tournament and there was absolutely a crunching sound that went along with it. Which I am not proud of at all, but he had attempted to roll out, it didn't work and things happen. Toe-holds are as viable as any leglock. Check out Minowa versus Gilbert Yvel or Imanari versus Yoshiro Maeda or any number of Masakatsu Funaki fights or Takefumi Hanai matches.

As far as wristlocks, wrists break if you bend or twist them the right way. Megumi Yabushita was so effective with wristlocks that Josh Barnett wrote an open letter criticizing her for using one against his then-girlfriend Shannon Hooper. His point being essentially that Yabushita had done a technique that was dangerous and potentially injurious to the point that it was unsporting. Sakuraba is famous for using them to break grips when finishing armbars and it tended to work pretty well for him. When they're done right, they can actually be brutally effective. I wouldn't write them off just because people haven't been using them.
 
When has a UFC fighter tapped to a wrist lock?

I'm sure it's happened, probably in like bronze age early UFC/MMA but I just don't think that's a technique that people really tap to in competition or in MMA. Where as heel hooks and leglocks people do tap, some don't and they get their knee's torn up like just someone might tough out an armbar.

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/most-common-ufc-submissions-with-graphs.2647639/

That's up to 2014, don't recall any wrist locks in MMA since then. I'm not saying wrist locks are total dogshit/bullshit, but the data shows they aren't really a super effect, debilitating submission that people will tap to. That chart is evidence of that. Much like a toe hold, where there was only 1 recorded sub from UFC 1 to 2013/2014, it's just not a sub people are going to tap to or get stopped/crippled by.
I literally covered that argument.

Wrists and hands are tightly taped numbnuts. I just show a tenth of the speed of what my old crazy "Judo is a full MA art" coaches use to punish us with in my new Judo club and everyone is cringing and tapping like crazy . And I'm not even any good, just trained them for grading.

Everyone thought Shotokan was "useless" to train in 2004, everyone thought Tae Kwon Do was "useless" to train until 2012.

Going back in time when MMA was even less skilled in technique and athleticism doesn't prove something doesn't work, it only proves that the skill gap was to great for the competitors. I'm too lazy...and have to start training soon...to look up the examples of former MMA champs to be overshadowed by the next level of technique and skill.

As I said in my bored rant yesterday...

"It'll take a lot more ingenuity and athleticism to catch wrists and elbows, but when you get that good you'll start damaging each other to the point of not being able to train or breakfall bailing out of them and looking like the stuff you laugh at because it looks to "easy" or "compliant"."

The damage to necessity for competition ratio was too great for them to be acceptable for Randori. If BJJ ever gets good on the feet they will ban them too as that Jakare clip shows.
 
I literally covered that argument.

Wrists and hands are tightly taped numbnuts. I just show a tenth of the speed of what my old crazy "Judo is a full MA art" coaches use to punish us with in my new Judo club and everyone is cringing and tapping like crazy . And I'm not even any good, just trained them for grading.

Everyone thought Shotokan was "useless" to train in 2004, everyone thought Tae Kwon Do was "useless" to train until 2012.

Going back in time when MMA was even less skilled in technique and athleticism doesn't prove something doesn't work, it only proves that the skill gap was to great for the competitors. I'm too lazy...and have to start training soon...to look up the examples of former MMA champs to be overshadowed by the next level of technique and skill.

As I said in my bored rant yesterday...

"It'll take a lot more ingenuity and athleticism to catch wrists and elbows, but when you get that good you'll start damaging each other to the point of not being able to train or breakfall bailing out of them and looking like the stuff you laugh at because it looks to "easy" or "compliant"."

The damage to necessity for competition ratio was too great for them to be acceptable for Randori. If BJJ ever gets good on the feet they will ban them too as that Jakare clip shows.

You sound similar to that guy who used to dick ride Judo and post random gibberish, except clearly more articulate. Where did that guy go?

Again, you're not going to convince me with obvious fallacious attempts at pointing to single digit MMA fighters who had success with a PARTIAL background in some form of karate or TKD that these arts are suddenly super effective or optimal. They're not, they're generally dogshit and they're still better than JJJ/Aikido type fake arts.

And i'm not sure how that somehow translates to wrist locks being effective either. If wrist locks were effective, considering they are far less risky than leg locks, logically we'd imagine there would be people training them and a system based around them in grappling. Yet there isn't.

Sorry but I'm not falling for some mystical cult bullshit and believing that Sensei WristLock techinques are actually fucking great, it's just that no one really uses them, but trust me they are effective, the UFC/MMA just has terrible technique actually! Nah bro...they are a low% shit tier sub. They're a meme sub.
 
This is a lot of things, but ineffectual isn't one of them:


Yeah that's a cool vid, now genuine question, how many wrist locks did Jacare hit in ADCC?

He needed the gi to perform that technique. As I've said 5 times now, I never said wrist locks are entirely ineffective. They're just shit and low% relative to tons of other submissions, or maintaining control, or gnp if a real/MMA fight.

I just don't like the insinuation that wrist locks are some hidden magical art form that's truly effective, okay and where are all the wrist lockers in grappling? Why hasn't Danaher or someone like that dove into the wrist lock game and put out instructionals on wrist locks? I'm sure there are some bullshit-culty ones out there.

Here:

 
Yeah that's a cool vid, now genuine question, how many wrist locks did Jacare hit in ADCC?

He needed the gi to perform that technique. As I've said 5 times now, I never said wrist locks are entirely ineffective. They're just shit and low% relative to tons of other submissions, or maintaining control, or gnp if a real/MMA fight.

I just don't like the insinuation that wrist locks are some hidden magical art form that's truly effective, okay and where are all the wrist lockers in grappling? Why hasn't Danaher or someone like that dove into the wrist lock game and put out instructionals on wrist locks? I'm sure there are some bullshit-culty ones out there.

Here:


Well, I certainly never said they were magical. But I think it is a vast oversimplification to say that because a submission is not currently seen, it is therefore ineffectual. There are trends in grappling; there's only so much time in the and it only makes sense that a vast majority of people are going to focus on familiarizing themselves with what's being done and training to react to it.

Simply because a certain set of moves become marginalized or less common doesn't mean they are less effective. It just means people aren't using the moves. Leglocks were never ineffectual, for example. They were just underutilized. Another issue is that the more marginalized a set of techniques become, the less likely that they will become weapons in the hands of top-flight athletes who can make them work. These things just happen.

Honestly, I don't think any set of submissions are "shit"; different circumstances render different submissions more effective and different grapplers will be more fluent with different submissions.

And as far as someone using a wristlock in high-level grappling, another example other than the Jacare one, would be Rocha-Held at Kasai Pro 3. It actually netted Rocha the quickest submission of the night, against a man who is certainly a world-class grappler:
 
But on the ground they'll always be an opportunistic thing and for most grapplers/fighters, the investment drilling and perfecting them just isn't worth it. Same reason we don't see many Judo foot sweeps in MMA - the timing and mechanics takes years to master and they're not common in the two most popular MMA bases - wrestling and BJJ.
I think that's a good point.

I was actually caught in a wristlock by Ryan Bow in training. He was going for a Kimura and I wasn't really sweating it, because I was sure I was strong enough to defend it and I was also confident in my ability to counter. Out of nowhere he wristlocked me. It hurt and almost felt like cheating. I think when you do them right, under the right circumstances, they can be great. I think there are a lot of examples like mine, where the situation you're accounting for is sharply and suddenly altered by the introduction of a wristlock.
 
"Japanese Jiu Jitsu" is a term about as broad as wǔshù. Techniques and training methods can vary greatly from school to school. Some only ever trained with one specific weapon.
True.
 
wristlocks are great at getting people to expose their arm, and if they don't...you just wristlock them.
 
wristlocks are great at getting people to expose their arm, and if they don't...you just wristlock them.
Absolutely. Like I said, Sakuraba used to do it all the time to finish armbars.
 
Well, I certainly never said they were magical. But I think it is a vast oversimplification to say that because a submission is not currently seen, it is therefore ineffectual. There are trends in grappling; there's only so much time in the and it only makes sense that a vast majority of people are going to focus on familiarizing themselves with what's being done and training to react to it.

Simply because a certain set of moves become marginalized or less common doesn't mean they are less effective. It just means people aren't using the moves. Leglocks were never ineffectual, for example. They were just underutilized. Another issue is that the more marginalized a set of techniques become, the less likely that they will become weapons in the hands of top-flight athletes who can make them work. These things just happen.

Honestly, I don't think any set of submissions are "shit"; different circumstances render different submissions more effective and different grapplers will be more fluent with different submissions.

And as far as someone using a wristlock in high-level grappling, another example other than the Jacare one, would be Rocha-Held at Kasai Pro 3. It actually netted Rocha the quickest submission of the night, against a man who is certainly a world-class grappler:


I'm not sure that Rocha didn't bend that guy's fingers back more than "wrist lock" him but who knows.

Both wrist locks you posted were done in super specific situations though, I'd say. Basically all the wrist locks I see happening in grappling competition are coming when guys interlace fingers (it's just bending their fingers back...) or someone has a triangle (like Danaher mentioned).

The issue isn't the "breaking" mechanism per se. I still think that's rather low% and non crippling, people can just not fucking tap to it an actual wrist lock and let their ligaments get sprained or fucked up to an easier extent than your entire arm (elbow) or leg (knee).

But the issue is the control like Danaher mentioned. Unless there is a specific situation like Jacare using his own lapel and snap down (or whatever) to plant a guy down and lock him into place then isolate the wrist, or the interlocking fingers into what is more 4 fingers being broken than an actual wrist...

Well then you're using two hands on one wrist. Okay and unless you're way fucking stronger than your opponent you have no control. The only times I think you can feasibly hit this are when you literally have someone crucifixed (do we even see that in grappling lol? I can't recall), mounted triangle, maybe bottom guard triangle (but you can go for an armbar or finish the triangle just as easily?), or something similar...maybe like the Wiltse/Marcelo/many leg over one arm back control thingy then you could wrist lock the free arm (but again why not choke?).

Like I said from the beginning, I don't think it's a "fake" technique. It does "work". But it's just so goofy, low% compared to many other subs. It's like shit I've seen before where people on this forum say "well this aikido technique can work!" but not as bad/to that degree.



This was the Rocha technique too, I mean...again it's "real" and it "could work" and it did to a high level black belt apparently. But he was also on the edge of the stage/mat, couldn't move back, and never did actually tap I don't think just yelled. Idk just seems like a goofy situation where it worked, like the rare goofy situations we see wrist locks work in any remotely high level setting. Even in the comments the guy likes the comment that "no high level grappler should ever tap to this"...lol.

I'm writing too much on this at this point and respectfully agree to disagree while I am agreeing it's "real" for the 7th time...but where was Rocha's wrist locks during the Gordon Ryan bout? You'd think that might catch him off guard. Maybe he tried, I don't remember and barely watched it.
 
I think that's a good point.

I was actually caught in a wristlock by Ryan Bow in training. He was going for a Kimura and I wasn't really sweating it, because I was sure I was strong enough to defend it and I was also confident in my ability to counter. Out of nowhere he wristlocked me. It hurt and almost felt like cheating. I think when you do them right, under the right circumstances, they can be great. I think there are a lot of examples like mine, where the situation you're accounting for is sharply and suddenly altered by the introduction of a wristlock.

That's my one wristlock sub I can recall (about a year ago). I secured the kimura trap from half guard and was overly hellbent on finishing it. Other guy scrambled and was able to take my back. I held onto the kimura but wasn't able to turn into him or go anywhere with it (he was a strong dude) so I half-trolled him by moving my hand gripping his wrist down to the back of his hand and bent his wrist in before releasing it. We both laughed about it but he conceded it was a legit tap.

The two times I recall getting tapped were 1) from inside their triangle. I successfully defended multiple attempts to tighten the triangle, convert to triangle armbar and failed attempts at teepee choke. Got cocky and thought I could just hang out and wait for his legs to gas but he surprised me out of nowhere by bending my wrist in and getting a tap; 2) from inside closed guard I posted on instructor's sternum to stand up and he anchored the hand in place and crunched in to bend my wrist back and get a tap.

Yeah that's a cool vid, now genuine question, how many wrist locks did Jacare hit in ADCC?

He needed the gi to perform that technique. As I've said 5 times now, I never said wrist locks are entirely ineffective. They're just shit and low% relative to tons of other submissions, or maintaining control, or gnp if a real/MMA fight.

I just don't like the insinuation that wrist locks are some hidden magical art form that's truly effective, okay and where are all the wrist lockers in grappling? Why hasn't Danaher or someone like that dove into the wrist lock game and put out instructionals on wrist locks? I'm sure there are some bullshit-culty ones out there.

Here:



Agree with Danaher and that's why wristlocks are more viable from standing. But on the ground, they're definitely viable from the three positions I mentioned above (and possibly others) because you've already locked down opponent's arm and torso and most wouldn't expect a wristlock from there.

If wristlocks are your only submission, your overall sub % will suck because yeah, they're only possible from certain positions. But that's true of any submission technique. The more techniques you're proficient at, the more openings you'll be able to capitalize on. But no one can be expert at everything, even world champs have preferred techniques. @Kforcer's point about toeholds and leglocks being underutilized for years makes this point. I know how to apply kneebars, heel hooks, ankle locks and toe holds but rarely get them because I'm not used to actively hunting for them and seeing openings. I mean I'll go for a straight ankle lock or an outside heel hook if it's staring me in the face but I'm much more comfortable going for upper body submissions from top control due to wrestling and Judo background.
 
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