ADCC 2013 aftermath discussion

[Balto]

The podium pictures were cool, Cobrinha and Rafael are ripped like mad.

I wonder if Keenan will stick to his word and throw away his bronze medals from ADCC. He's said before that he keeps all his medals in an old shoebox... except for his silvers and bronzes which he throws away.

Also, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that Paolo/Joao may have a genuine chance to beat Rafael/Cobrinha/Gui (depending on which weight they do) in the gi. Considering last year nobody had any clue the Miyaos had a no-gi game, I'd like to see them really bring it in the gi.

I think the main obstacle for Miyaos will be overcoming the kind of strategy Rader was using. Rafa sort of did the same thing too, although he got further with his pass attempts. Neither passed, but they were able to defend all attacks and get enough of a score to win.

Miyaos attack constantly, but the attacks are predictable and not as universally effective at the top level as they were at lower levels. Despite near constant attacking, Joao was unable to finalize a score for anything on Rader. It reminded me a little of someone just jabbing the whole time in a boxing match but not really doing any damage.

I think they are going to need to be able to switch things up a little more to create the openings they need to hit their bread and butter berimbolo game. I think they can adapt, but it might take a little time.

 

[jr jr]

That's the BJJ False Dilemma.

Enforce stalling calls and things will get to the ground quick enough. Stalling calls should also pick up the groundwork too so no more hanging out in 50/50 faking toeholds for 90% of the match.

Furthermore, if the other major tournaments had similar pulling rules the players would have better takedown skills. Takedowns = the least practiced part of bjj (passing, guard, takedowns).

 

[Balto]

Furthermore, if the other major tournaments had similar pulling rules the players would have better takedown skills. Takedowns = the least practiced part of bjj (passing, guard, takedowns).

I don't think the snorefest issue is one of skill necessarily. AJ/DJ was a snoozefest on the feet the whole time, and they are both takedown specialists. No one scored even a single takedown. They just know that they can stall in BJJ, so that is what they do.

But yes, takedown skill in general would increase if it were more important than it is now.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

That's the BJJ False Dilemma.

Enforce stalling calls and things will get to the ground quick enough. Stalling calls should also pick up the groundwork too so no more hanging out in 50/50 faking toeholds for 90% of the match.

taking points for guard pulling creates this type of snoozfest, and maybe more, leo vs aj was even worst, far worst...

I agree with you, the must be stalling calls standing up and on the ground...

by the way, taking away points for pulling guard after a failed td is so wrong.

edit: just saw the whole video... both matches are equally boring, except kron finished this one..

 

[Uchi Mata]

They were originally supposed to go to Brazil this year, but somehow ended up in China for yet-to-be-disclosed reasons. I think what annoys all of us isn't that the event isn't better attended, but that the ADCC's obvious ambivalence toward promoting their signature event misses a huge opportunity to promote the sport as a whole. This is an amazing event that could get some genuine mainstream media coverage if they pushed it the right way, but instead they keep it so hidden that even most jiu jitsu practitioners don't know about it. I mean, there wasn't even a mention of the stream on the ADCC's own webpage.

Well, the ADCC itself is just a very, very rich man's plaything. All the promotion and even streaming the event is secondary to one guy and a few of his friends paying the best guys in the world to roll for their personal enjoyment. I don't have a problem with it because it creates some great matches and puts some $$$ in the top guys' pockets, but I have very low expectations for its fan friendliness since it is put on for the benefit of one very specific person.

 

[laquintofox]

there has already been american born and trained grapplers that have dominated in adcc u guys are forgetting them for some reason no it hasn't always been brazilians.

Agreed. It had to feel great to get the monkey off his back of finally beating a top 2-3 guy at his weight class.



Yep, and you have to think the training at TLI has taken a backseat to the drama. Nyjah Easton didn't get anywhere either, even after having a great showing at Mundials



Not really sure where you're coming from on that, most are Brazilians who moved to the US at some point so they got all their training in America. And frankly, most of the champs didn't show terribly impressive wrestling. The American wrestling based fighters like DJ, AJ, and Rader did fine but didn't win anything.



As much as I would like that to be true, all the winners and all the finalists except Dean and Lovato were Brazilian. I think Americans are at the point where we're competing with the top Brazilians and in the near future I expect we'll take home some golds at top tournaments, but dominance? Slow down there. All the current top guys, even if they live in the US, learned and trained in Brazil usually coming to America as already accomplished competitors. We have a ways to go yet.

 

[dokomoy]

I think the main obstacle for Miyaos will be overcoming the kind of strategy Rader was using. Rafa sort of did the same thing too, although he got further with his pass attempts. Neither passed, but they were able to defend all attacks and get enough of a score to win.

Miyaos attack constantly, but the attacks are predictable and not as universally effective at the top level as they were at lower levels. Despite near constant attacking, Joao was unable to finalize a score for anything on Rader. It reminded me a little of someone just jabbing the whole time in a boxing match but not really doing any damage.

I think they are going to need to be able to switch things up a little more to create the openings they need to hit their bread and butter berimbolo game. I think they can adapt, but it might take a little time.

I don't really agree with this. It's true that Joao's attacks were pretty predictable BUT that's true of most competitors AND he had a lot of success with it too. Joao tapped his first two opponents and while Rafa shut him down he got deep a bunch of times on Rader. Rader is one of the best guys in the world nogi(has wins over Glover and Hall plus a bunch of nogi worlds medals and hasn't lost to anyone besides Cobrinha and Rafael Mendes in years) and Joao still had a lot of success(a couple leglocks that looked pretty tight, a near sweep that he probably would have gotten if they didn't reset inbound and he had the back with the seatbelt and 1 hook twice).

To me this suggests the problem wasn't Joao's strategy but that he's not yet able to finish those techniques against the very best in the world(it's worth noting that Cobrinha uses a lot of the same techniques Joao was using against Rafa and Rader). Also, I don't think many people will be able to replicate those guys success against Joao because there aren't more than 1 or 2 other guys on that level without the gi.

 

[Strange Shadows]

under pride rules joao would've beaten rader

 

[Uchi Mata]

there has already been american born and trained grapplers that have dominated in adcc u guys are forgetting them for some reason no it hasn't always been brazilians.

I'm not forgetting them. There have been some guys like Mark Van Arsdale and Dean who have won big in ADCC, but the proposition was that Americans are coming to dominate the sport of submission grappling/BJJ and I just don't think that's the case or will be in the next few years.

 

[Balto]

I don't really agree with this. It's true that Joao's attacks were pretty predictable BUT that's true of most competitors AND he had a lot of success with it too. Joao tapped his first two opponents and while Rafa shut him down he got deep a bunch of times on Rader. Rader is one of the best guys in the world nogi(has wins over Glover and Hall plus a bunch of nogi worlds medals and hasn't lost to anyone besides Cobrinha and Rafael Mendes in years) and Joao still had a lot of success(a couple leglocks that looked pretty tight, a near sweep that he probably would have gotten if they didn't reset inbound and he had the back with the seatbelt and 1 hook twice).

To me this suggests the problem wasn't Joao's strategy but that he's not yet able to finish those techniques against the very best in the world(it's worth noting that Cobrinha uses a lot of the same techniques Joao was using against Rafa and Rader). Also, I don't think many people will be able to replicate those guys success against Joao because there aren't more than 1 or 2 other guys on that level without the gi.

Oh I agree with you that they will have success against many people at black belt. I was specifically referring to the part about them beating Rafa/Gui/Cobrinha soon. I think they still need to work on their strategy some before that can happen.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I'm not forgetting them. There have been some guys like Mark Van Arsdale and Dean who have won big in ADCC, but the proposition was that Americans are coming to dominate the sport of submission grappling/BJJ and I just don't think that's the case or will be in the next few years.

did mark actually win? all I can remember from him was getting rnc'd by marcelinho...

 

[jr jr]

To me this suggests the problem wasn't Joao's strategy but that he's not yet able to finish those techniques against the very best in the world(it's worth noting that Cobrinha uses a lot of the same techniques Joao was using against Rafa and Rader). Also, I don't think many people will be able to replicate those guys success against Joao because there aren't more than 1 or 2 other guys on that level without the gi.

Interesting question. If there is a limit to how good he could be (maximum; flexibility, strength, technique, etc....) his berimbolo has to be close to the end of the spectrum. Lets use an arbitrary 90/100. What he may have is other areas that can greatly improve. Guard passing 50/100 (arbitrarily made up) and takedowns 10/100 (again, just for discussion). I believe as he grows and threatens with other things it will continue to open up is "A" game. The kid is young and apparently has the drive and work ethic to do whatever he wants.

 

[Uchi Mata]

did mark actually win? all I can remember from him was getting rnc'd by marcelinho...

So I checked, and no, in fact, he didn't. Americans who have won their division or absolute are:

-Jeff Monson
-Mark Kerr
-Ricco Rodriguez
-Dean Lister
-Robert Drysdale

Other than those guys, Einemo and someone named Kareem Barkalaev have won other than Brazilians. So yeah, the rumors of American dominance are highly exaggerated.

BJJ will end up like Judo. The Japanese were totally dominant for probably 20 years after Judo hit the international scene, and even now they're probably the strongest country but you don't expect them to automatically win. It'll be the same in BJJ, there will be more Brazilian champs than champs from other nations, but over time Americans and probably initially Japanese fighters will also start showing up on the podiums, sometimes winning gold. Though Judo grew a lot faster internationally than BJJ seems to be.

 

[Supereem]

Buchecha, Romulo, AND Joao have been training wrestling with churchboyz wrestling in southern Cal for ADCC. Cobrinha has been training his wrestling with kings MMA for ADCC. There were a lot of Americans in the top 3. Most I've seen probably ever. Brazilians are stepping their game up with the wrestling IN AMERICA. Kron (though Brazilian) learned a majority of his game in the states. These top practitioners r staying and will continue to teach in AMERICA. dominance is approaching sooner than you think.

Murica.

 

[redaxe]

take caio to throw a turd on one of adcc's best moments

Talking about this, Caio calling the Buchecha / Cyborg match a work on Facebook?

https://www.facebook.com/caioterrabjj/posts/552464434827110

 

[metallifan3091]

Mark Van Arsdale

Mike? Sorry, not trying to nitpick, I just have a weird thing with people getting names wrong.

 

[redaxe]

Buchecha's conditioning has often looked suspect at times. His style is so aggressive that he burns a ton of energy if he doesn't get the sub early.

He's also like 235 lbs, you won't exactly find any marathoners at that weight. The longer the matches go, the worse it gets for the big guys.

 

[Limatime]

Talking about this, Caio calling the Buchecha / Cyborg match a work on Facebook?

https://www.facebook.com/caioterrabjj/posts/552464434827110

Caio's comment in the same thread:
"Sebastian english isnt my first language s

 

[laquintofox]

mark kerr was a beast in his prime in adcc!!!!!!

I'm not forgetting them. There have been some guys like Mark Van Arsdale and Dean who have won big in ADCC, but the proposition was that Americans are coming to dominate the sport of submission grappling/BJJ and I just don't think that's the case or will be in the next few years.

 

[BJJArsenal]

Oh I agree with you that they will have success against many people at black belt. I was specifically referring to the part about them beating Rafa/Gui/Cobrinha soon. I think they still need to work on their strategy some before that can happen.

Although I do agree with you, I also think we should wait until we see them in action in the gi against these guys before we finalise our thoughts about it. The Miyaos specialise in the gi and if anything Rafael often looks more impressive out of it.