Adapting grappling for a one on one fight with no weapons/rules

[BJJ_Rage]

What's the problem here exactly? You're looking for internet trouble or something?


You think so? I just shared a post from another forum which sounded plausible to me. No idea why you're offended by that.


Yeah, we got it, you think hitting the balls doesn't work.

No, I think hitting the balls in close guard vs someone who has more than 6 month training shouldn’t work... you think it does?

 

[yetanother]

You think hitting someone in the balls is bullshit?

Obviously getting kicked in the balls sucked but I don't think it counters MMA/BJJ.
If it where as powerful as they claimed women would win in Pankration against men.
EDIT: Sean roberts has balls of still and he would be the Pankration king.

 

[DatCutman]

Whoo-boy getting quite defensive there, m8.
I'm just gonna ignore your weird way of discussing ("If ball attacks work in grappling, the fighters suck.") and logical fallacies ("I haven't seen groin punches on vases, so they didn't exist") and ask:

What is your point?

Ignoring my "weird way of discussing" is a really convenient way of sidestepping what I'm saying, and your summations of my arguments is incorrect. I'll put it in a plainer fashion.

You made the following assertion/conclusion:

Moral of the story: You have to change your mind set completely when there are no rules.

Your evidence/reasoning for this was based on some individuals that engaged in Pankration-style spars; that due to the fact "nothing was banned", "everything changed". You used multiple examples, all of which resulted in groin attacks.

There are multiple issues with stating such a conclusion based off that forum post you read, that may not have been considered by you. For instance, that the practitioners may not have been sufficiently skilled, either in grappling or pankration.

There's also an inherent, factual issue with saying "Pankration was a much more brutal sport", where anyone who would use a modern approach in such a rule set would be "basically completely lost", when there is an inherent disparity between the "recreated" pankration and the actual pankration. I referenced the evidence (in fact, the only evidence that exists) regarding ancient pankration, and how it actually looks more like the "modern approach" to fighting than a spectacle of crushed testicles.

My point then being that 1) your statement in this thread is not supported by the information provided, and 2) there are elements of your information that attest to the opposite (i.e., pankration).

This sounds like some late 90s troll post on Bullshido where you try to convince people that eye gouges don't work on you because you're hard as f**k. Chill out.

I also disagree with your characterization of a Bullshido troll post.

Bullshido was a site designed to laugh, with relish, at people who implied eye gouging or groin strikes were the end-all be-all of combat. A troll post on bullshido then would be claiming as you are; that based off of a forum post you read between two guys of unknown grappling skill recreating pankration (even though it doesn't match up with historical depictions/accounts of pankration), you believe the "modern approach" to fighting to be invalidated by the inclusion of penile pulling. Such troll attempts usually proved unsuccessful in bullshido, because the response would be, "Let's meet up and see." Now we have to simply settle for discussing intellectual concepts than finding out the truth for ourselves.

All that to say, I never said a groin attack wouldn't work on me. Only that it isn't the revolution you claim it to be, ESPECIALLY in the realm of pankration. I would suggest, if you're interested in learning about the ancient history of Pankration, picking up the book "Combat sports of the ancient world." It's a very interesting read.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Foot sweeps, trips, and throws that keep you stand -> stomps and soccer kicks -> run like hell.

It’s a 1 v 1 scenario, why would you run like hell?

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

It’s a 1 v 1 scenario, why would you run like hell?

Cuz dude might call the cops after I whoop his ass! People who pick fights in America are bitches and call police on you for assault after they lose a fight.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Cuz dude might call the cops after I whoop his ass! People who pick fights in America are bitches and call police on you for assault after they lose a fight.

That’s a good reason lol

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

That’s a good reason lol

Of course there are exceptions to that strategy. Like the person committed a crime and I need to detain them till cops arrive or something. And use of force restraints might replace the soccer kicks with knee on belly, knee on head, knee in the middle of their back etc depending on how they land.

 

[yetanother]

A uncrowned pankration champion demonstrating his two deadly weapons that would have emasculated thousands of men in the ancient arenas.

 

[TroldeAnsigt]

Why does every thread at some point become an argument about balls

 

[Eisenhans]

Lemme just write a novel for you

What the f.

My point then being that 1) your statement in this thread is not supported by the information provided, and 2) there are elements of your information that attest to the opposite (i.e., pankration).

Both of which are, of course, your interpretation.

Now, I'm not gonna write a novel to meticulously take you apart because quite frankly, you don't have any arguments, just strawmen. "My" statement ITT was the statement of the grapplers who tried it out, which I found plausible (which you, in turn, found offensive). And there is no "opposing" information, since as you correctly noticed, we don't have the system anymore, just interpretation based on fragments. Your interpretation differs to the one those German grapplers did, which I subscribe to. And you can't accept that.

 

[Eisenhans]

Obviously getting kicked in the balls sucked but I don't think it counters MMA/BJJ.
If it where as powerful as they claimed women would win in Pankration against men.
EDIT: Sean roberts has balls of still and he would be the Pankration king.

Whut.

 

[HunterAcosta]

I read some posts on a German martial arts forum about some grapplers (MMA and HEMA) who tried to play around with Pankration (ie. only eye gouges and biting are banned). Meaning: They tried to recreate the style unprofessionally by looking at statues, vases and old books and using their own expertise and skills to fill in the gaps.
In the end, they pretty quickly realized that many modern grappling/MMA approaches are pretty useless in such an environment.

For example, the guard was easily countered by punching the bottom guy in the balls several times. If you slipped a jab, you didn't hit the other guy in the body or face, you punched or grabbed his balls. Everything changed when basically nothing was banned. They expected Pankration to be a kind of watered-down MMA, but it turned out that Pankration was a much more brutal sport where anyone using a modern approach was basically completely lost. It was completely incompatible with modern ideas of combat sports.

Moral of the story: You have to change your mind set completely when there are no rules.

Against some choad maybe it works , but slipping a trained boxes Jab and trying to destroy his balls is going to leave your face exposed to a massive combo which , after getting hit one good time ( if not koed) will force u to put your guard up and abandon attacking his balls . Guard ? Reaching down and punching his balls will get him to triangle u , reach up and gouge your eyes ( which will get u to stop punching his balls ) or have him release guard ( I’m assuming u mean closed ) and upkick shit outta u at whicj point ( if not koed) will get you to stop punching his balls.

 

[yetanother]

Whut.

Sean Roberts is a BJJ competitors who doesn't even react when people literally stand on his balls in BJJ matches. He was also famous for a calf slicer which was a technique you would often crush your balls while doing.

 

[chubbman]

the only grappling you need for a fight on the streetz is the suplex.

 

[NewS]

He was also famous for a calf slicer which was a technique you would often crush your balls while doing.

I tried it once, never again

 

[efficientjudo]

I don't think there is anyone training in BJJ that thinks jumping guard is a street fighting / self defence technique - everyone knows that its a sport technique. Its use in mma is limited pretty much to those that have tried an failed other ways of taking their opponent down or done by those with vastly superior grappling to their opponent.

How would you approach grappling in your hypothetical situation? just as you would in MMA, which means if you can't out-strike them or take them down, ending up on your back and playing guard may be your best chance to finish the fight.

 

[DatCutman]

What the f.


Both of which are, of course, your interpretation.

While true, my interpretation does have a logical frame work based off of external evidence. For example, the picture you posted here:

Is actually a picture entitled "Two Boxers"; in Greek Pygmachia, amongst the rules that existed for boxers, there were no groin shots allowed. So, I don't think that your picture demonstrates what you think it does. It's certainly tempting to take something at face value, but we can't allow ourselves to fall to such sensationalism.

"My" statement ITT was the statement of the grapplers who tried it out, which I found plausible (which you, in turn, found offensive).

I don't find it offensive at all; you are fine to choose whatever you so believe based on whatever metrics you find acceptable. However, as this is a place of public discussion, the joy is being able to discuss such issues, rather than just accept conclusions at face value. Especially when conclusions have undergone lackluster investigation.

However, your post history seems to suggest this is a recurring theme; you make a conclusion, and if anyone questions you, you respond with hostility, treating them as an ignorant person, and dismiss them wholesale. I'm curious why you even bother with a public forum.

And there is no "opposing" information, since as you correctly noticed, we don't have the system anymore, just interpretation based on fragments.

Not entirely true here, as there is an absence of evidence. For example, if I said Pankration was fought by large breasted women, and simply concluded "well, we'll never know for sure, it's been lost to time," you could bring up the fact that there's no historical descriptions or artwork supporting that fact. That based off of everything we can know, that knowledge suggests the opposite, and that my conclusion was based off of no historical evidence. I could still hold that belief obviously, but we would all know at that point it was a belief based off of my desire to hold it, rather than a well thought out conclusion.

Your interpretation differs to the one those German grapplers did, which I subscribe to. And you can't accept that.

If a random forum post by grapplers you never met on an experiment you never saw or validated yourself is sufficient to prove this point conclusively for you, I can easily accept that. Your personal belief system is your own. People believe in all sorts of things. Some people believed there was a space ship hiding behind halley's comet to take them all away to the promised land. The world is a wide, wide place, full of all sorts of ideas. I wouldn't try to change your belief system (especially not after speaking with you), because no one can change your mind but you.

With that said, this is a public discussion forum, where neutral third parties are going to read this and draw their own conclusions. Another Eisenhans Jr. may be waiting in the wings reading this now; and maybe if someone had drawn these sorts of critical questions on the seed forum post that so influenced you, you may have different conclusions now. Unless you just took that forum post to confirm your own personal bias, I guess, but I don't really know enough about your belief system before or after reading that forum post to say.

 

[MaxMMA]

Depends on how good your wrestling is. If you have no striking and limited wrestling experience then you are probably going to run in head down, arms stretched out reaching which is a great way to get pieced up even by someone with no experience. It's just an easy target.

I know this is dangerous but I would just assume a high wrestling stance, start swinging and let the fight progress naturally into the clinch from there. It almost always does and swinging wildly puts you at no more risk of being KO'd than walking in like a zombie with your head down.

If self defense is a goal of yours then spending just a little time learning boxing fundamentals and wrestling will give you an edge in a freestyle type of fight.

 

[judoka loca]

Cover your head in a keysi "pensador" stance. Rush him as he is throwing volleys of punches. Tie up with him and throw him any way that presents itself. Choke him unconscious, tie his shoelaces together, and exit before he can come after you

 

[BJJ_Rage]

What the f.


Both of which are, of course, your interpretation.

Now, I'm not gonna write a novel to meticulously take you apart because quite frankly, you don't have any arguments, just strawmen. "My" statement ITT was the statement of the grapplers who tried it out, which I found plausible (which you, in turn, found offensive). And there is no "opposing" information, since as you correctly noticed, we don't have the system anymore, just interpretation based on fragments. Your interpretation differs to the one those German grapplers did, which I subscribe to. And you can't accept that.

You found it possible because you have no clue what your talking about, i posted some vids so you can see how silly is to think you can just grab some balls in someone’s guard and nothings going to happen.