Accessory lifts

[STRYDG]

How important are they if you're already doing compound lifts? So say you already deadlift, squat, row, chin up, dip, bench and military press.

In terms of general fitness I take it you don't really need to worry about much else? Would that be the same for strength but but body building you would want to hit isolation and other things?

If you were only doing the above would you recommend work for bi's, tri's, calves, glutes, abs or certain exercises like shrugs or side lateral raises to hit other parts harder?

 

[dissectingaorticaneurysm]

unnecessary on a beginner routine with compounds and linear progression. By intermediate level, you should have plateaued a few times and know what your weak points are and isolate accordingly.

Again, if you are still progressing with with linear gains you shouldnt even be thinking about this.

 

[JimRussel]

unnecessary on a beginner routine with compounds and linear progression.

Huh? This is completely incorrect.

OP, what do you consider an “accessory” lift. Some of the movements you have listed would be considered accessory by some.

 

[JimRussel]

Again, if you are still progressing with with linear gains you shouldnt even be thinking about this.

And again, no.

You sound like you’re mimicking a hardcore powerlifter-bro from the early 2000s. It’s bad information.

 

[dissectingaorticaneurysm]

And again, no.

You sound like you’re mimicking a hardcore powerlifter-bro from the early 2000s. It’s bad information.

it's sound advice for the majority of newer lifters interested in "general strength". Once they exhaust their beginner gains, they can choose what needs isolation. I will add that beginner routines dont have enough back work so that should be added in as well.

 

[STRYDG]

Maybe my definition is wrong so do correct if so but isolation work like triceps pushdowns for example. Are they that important if your doing Dips and other things for fitness/strength other than aesthetics.

Something like calf raises may be more important as those muscles are not really being utilised in dead or squats?

This is a general question but if it were relating to me directly I'm an intermediate lifter if that's of any importance.

 

[deadshot138]

How important are they if you're already doing compound lifts? So say you already deadlift, squat, row, chin up, dip, bench and military press.

In terms of general fitness I take it you don't really need to worry about much else? Would that be the same for strength but but body building you would want to hit isolation and other things?

If you were only doing the above would you recommend work for bi's, tri's, calves, glutes, abs or certain exercises like shrugs or side lateral raises to hit other parts harder?

Rows chins and dips are already accessories

 

[deadshot138]

Maybe my definition is wrong so do correct if so but isolation work like triceps pushdowns for example. Are they that important if your doing Dips and other things for fitness/strength other than aesthetics.

Something like calf raises may be more important as those muscles are not really being utilised in dead or squats?

This is a general question but if it were relating to me directly I'm an intermediate lifter if that's of any importance.

Triceps push downs are largely useless for strength gains. Better off with skull crushers and their variants.

 

[deadshot138]

How important are they if you're already doing compound lifts? So say you already deadlift, squat, row, chin up, dip, bench and military press.

In terms of general fitness I take it you don't really need to worry about much else? Would that be the same for strength but but body building you would want to hit isolation and other things?

If you were only doing the above would you recommend work for bi's, tri's, calves, glutes, abs or certain exercises like shrugs or side lateral raises to hit other parts harder?

Lmao if you aren’t hitting your glutes with squats and dead’s then you are doing the movements wrong

 

[Grenz]

Huh? This is completely incorrect.

OP, what do you consider an “accessory” lift. Some of the movements you have listed would be considered accessory by some.

It’s definitely not “completely incorrect”. It’s actually mostly correct: for a beginner to get his bench up, he needs to bench more, not do tricep extensions. Similarly, the answer to the question of a beginner who wants to squat more is “squat more” not “incorporate chains into your routine” or “do leg presses”.

 

[Ilk]

I d say it depends.

I do about 5-8 sets chest exercices per week. And about the same number of shoulder. However I feel chest presses mostly on the shoulders. Same with pressing. I try to do heavy chest and shoulder lifts, thus no energy left for dips. So I add 2-4 working sets for triceps. One or two heavy working sets on the push downs per week. Not sure about the results just feeling them work gives me a feeling for completion.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Maybe my definition is wrong so do correct if so but isolation work like triceps pushdowns for example. Are they that important if your doing Dips and other things for fitness/strength other than aesthetics.

Something like calf raises may be more important as those muscles are not really being utilised in dead or squats?

This is a general question but if it were relating to me directly I'm an intermediate lifter if that's of any importance.

IMO if you're doing "deadlift, squat, row, chin up, dip, bench and military press," you're doing everything you need and more for general fitness. I did all the accessory lifts like cross cable flies, tricep press down, skullcrushers etc for 20 years before common sense kicked in and I just focused on the big 3 plus OHP and barbell rows, with occasional pull ups. I'm stronger for it and it didn't even make any difference in aesthetics. I doubt accessory lifts have much impact for most people unless you're doing rehab, or dieting and lifting as a competitive bodybuilder.

Re. calf raises, I used to do them but haven't in years. For one thing, going down past parallel in squats hits them. Additionally, I'm convinced that calf size, shape and definition is largely genetic and no amount of focus work will make much difference anyway.

Re. intermediate lifters, I'm not saying you're not, but I lifted for 20+ years and thought I was intermediate. I was doing all the lifts above but had never done a true strength routine with periodization around squats and deads as I've done for the past 5 years. So I was definitely still a novice at the big lifts except bench. Now that I'm in a steady routine, I realize that I will probably never advance beyond low to mid "intermediate" lifter status unless I stop training BJJ and cardio and focus on gains.

 

[Bodil]

Rows chins and dips are already accessories

Incorrect, unless speaking from a purely powerlifting perspective, which is very narrow minded/incorrect on its own.

Athletes (Footballers, MMAartists, Boxers, Throwers, Sprinters, Hockey players, etc.) barely, if ever, use the big 3 as their main lifts. If you want to train like an athlete, you'll be seeing a lot more of: Clean and Jerks, Push Press, Trap Bar Deadlifts, Front Squats, Press, Dips, Chin Ups, Ring Push Ups, Split Squats/Lunges, GHR, etc.

I've trained with powerlifters and they are good at 1 thing: the big 3. One of them had close to a 400 bench and couldn't do a single chin up.

It all depends on your goals, do you wanna be a bodybuilder? a powerlifter? an athlete; if so, for which sport? The answer heavily depends on which you pick.

 

[JimRussel]

it's sound advice for the majority of newer lifters interested in "general strength". Once they exhaust their beginner gains, they can choose what needs isolation. I will add that beginner routines dont have enough back work so that should be added in as well.

That's thinking of things a little too simplistically.

It’s definitely not “completely incorrect”. It’s actually mostly correct: for a beginner to get his bench up, he needs to bench more, not do tricep extensions. Similarly, the answer to the question of a beginner who wants to squat more is “squat more” not “incorporate chains into your routine” or “do leg presses”.

And why can't you do both? You can "squat more" and still do leg press/hamstring curls/leg extensions.

You can still "bench more" and do dips and curls. Have you ever seen a guy with a big bench press who has tiny arms?

So no, it's not "mostly correct". It's outdated, narrow minded thinking.

You guys should read this. https://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/31983

We now have an army of natural powerlifters who train using a sport-specific, high-volume, and high-frequency approach, and they don't even look like they lift. I have talked elsewhere about improving your ceiling as a lifter, and I will say it again: for all developing lifters, the #1 goal in training shouls be to increase your ceiling, not get stronger.

I tend to agree with this point of view and you see it all the time. Super hardcore powerlifters in the gym who look like stickmen, while the bro who doesn't write a single set or rep down and does your typical bodybuilding split I way bigger and stronger.

 

[JimRussel]

One of them had close to a 400 bench and couldn't do a single chin up.

I find this very hard to believe, unless a 400 lb bench was 1xBW.

 

[JimRussel]

I d say it depends.

I do about 5-8 sets chest exercices per week. And about the same number of shoulder. However I feel chest presses mostly on the shoulders. Same with pressing. I try to do heavy chest and shoulder lifts, thus no energy left for dips. So I add 2-4 working sets for triceps. One or two heavy working sets on the push downs per week. Not sure about the results just feeling them work gives me a feeling for completion.

What the fuck am I reading.

 

[JimRussel]

Triceps push downs are largely useless for strength gains. Better off with skull crushers and their variants.

Skullcrushers are good, but can be very hard on your elbows if you're doing them with any appreciable amount of weight.

Push downs are mostly for teh pump and hypertrophies.

 

[deadshot138]

Skullcrushers are good, but can be very hard on your elbows if you're doing them with any appreciable amount of weight.

Push downs are mostly for teh pump and hypertrophies.

I’ve switched to JM presses once my skull crushers went over 200lbs

 

[Grenz]

That's thinking of things a little too simplistically.



And why can't you do both? You can "squat more" and still do leg press/hamstring curls/leg extensions.

Because there’s only so much volume and intensity the body can tolerate. Sure you can add in the bodybuilding stuff, but a beginner who has no clue about programming and balancing intensity, frequency and volume will most surely fuck it up.

You can still "bench more" and do dips and curls. Have you ever seen a guy with a big bench press who has tiny arms?

Have you ever seen a beginner with a big bench? I haven’t.

So no, it's not "mostly correct". It's outdated, narrow minded thinking

Is it really outdated to think that a beginner lifter should lay down a solid foundation of strength first, and once he’s done that he can move on to worry about things like his upper chest? I would say that’s smart.

I’m not - and I don’t think anybody else here is either - saying there’s no value to body building style work. There most definitely is, but focusing on basics and keeping things simple while you’re still working on getting your bench up to body weight is sound advice.

 

[wufabufa]

I find this very hard to believe, unless a 400 lb bench was 1xBW.

I had a buddy that weighed around 200lbs and could bench 350.....dude couldn't do 3 dead hang pull ups. Pretty sad shit to see.