A habit/practice that I feel weakens BJJ overall.

[brollikk]

Whether you are practicing BJJ for just grappling tournaments or MMA, I feel that the attitude of sitting down and chilling on bottom every single practice hurts your grappling tremendously. I understand this isn't the case at ALL academies, but it is, from my experience, VERY common.

Sure you are practicing/developing proper movements from guard correctly and may give a hell of a time to a lot of people trying to pass your guard. But what is completely being missed is the ability to win scrambles and finish sweeps that go to the feet.

There are elite BJJ practitioners who have good wrestling, and those who don't.

Assuming that the vast majority of the elite grapplers (Mundials/ADCC top 10) can wrestle very well, preparing to sweep/end up on top of the best is what matters.

Sure you may be able to sweep an average black belt who has poor wrestling using a basic half guard underhook sweep. But does it really even matter if you try the same thing on one that has high level wrestling and get out-wrestled with ease?


A high level BJJ practitioner with elite wrestling can most definitely afford to have a smaller "guard" arsenal but still succeed in both grappling and MMA with MUCH greater success than the habitual guard puller. (in my opinion).


Thoughts?

 

[Lasse]

People who want to always land the takedown and then pass will have to compete against others with the same strategy. This means top players push eachother forward when it comes to % of takedowns being practiced.

All this complexity turns it to more of a match-up thing rather than one "style" being genuinely better.

A guard puller will work say 5% takedowns 60% guard and 35% top game.
A guy who focuses on takedowns will work say 50-35-15 to beat the other takedown focused people.

The guard-puller will hence have a guard at a higher level than the top gamers will have a passing game, which is the reason why we see "guard pullers" winning competitions.

I believe the guard is less of a favorable position than passing the guard, however there is a lot of time you need to spend before you will be "an elite wrestler". Also probably time which is worse for the body than spending the same amount on guard pulling.

Simple maths. My top game and bottom game is about equally good, however my takedowns are shit. If I want to catch up wrestlers or judokas in the stand-up I would need to spend say 1000 trainings of wrestling, which won't improve me as much an extra 1000 trainings of grappling.

Of course this is assuming you have the option of unlimited training in each art and AS GOOD trainers in each art.

 

[brollikk]

People who want to always land the takedown and then pass will have to compete against others with the same strategy. This means top players push eachother forward when it comes to % of takedowns being practiced.

All this complexity turns it to more of a match-up thing rather than one "style" being genuinely better.

A guard puller will work say 5% takedowns 60% guard and 35% top game.
A guy who focuses on takedowns will work say 50-35-15 to beat the other takedown focused people.

The guard-puller will hence have a guard at a higher level than the top gamers will have a passing game, which is the reason why we see "guard pullers" winning competitions.

I believe the guard is less of a favorable position than passing the guard, however there is a lot of time you need to spend before you will be "an elite wrestler". Also probably time which is worse for the body than spending the same amount on guard pulling.

Simple maths. My top game and bottom game is about equally good, however my takedowns are shit. If I want to catch up wrestlers or judokas in the stand-up I would need to spend say 1000 trainings of wrestling, which won't improve me as much an extra 1000 trainings of grappling.

Of course this is assuming you have the option of unlimited training in each art and AS GOOD trainers in each art.

I do not agree with you about the 1000 trainings of wrestling not being as good as 1000 trainings of grappling.

The way I see it...

A+ wrestling and C level jiu jitsu gets you a HELL of a lot further than A+ BJJ and C level wrestling. This applies to both MMA and BJJ competitions.

I think this wasn't as apparent back in the day (90s and partially into 2000s) because there were not many high level wrestlers cross training and thus the majority of BJJ practitioners had poor wrestling.

If the type of opponent that is most difficult in both MMA and BJJ competitions is the "elite wrestler with great sub defense"... the solution is to become one yourself (or try your best to do it).

Initially, it is the very same reason why most people (at least in my opinion) started doing BJJ. Because Royce Gracie showed how it was such a difficult style to beat in the 90s.

 

[JBeard]

To get it straight you're saying to spend less time learning how to pull guard effectively and more time learning to wrestle/reverse and control from top?

 

[brollikk]

To get it straight you're saying to spend less time learning how to pull guard effectively and more time learning to wrestle/reverse and control from top?

Sort of.

In my opinion, I think that once you become very experienced at wrestling, defending MOST traditional sweeps in bjj becomes much easier. Coincidentally, the harder to stop sweeps are the ones that eventually turn into takedowns. Wrestling will also get you better at finishing those.

 

[rms13]

My school has a wrestling class. During open rolls in jiu jitsu class the mat is usually too crowded for guys to be taking each other down without hurting others who are rolling. Sometimes during jiu jitsu our teacher will put a 2 or 3 pairs of guys on the mat to wrestle/jiu jitsu roll and have other people rotate in for rounds. That's one reason I picked the school I did is because they have a little dedicated stand up/take down wrestling training

 

[AgonyandIrony]

You may be right but I doubt I'll ever really quit pulling guard. I just absolutely love doing it. Besides you are really undervaluing how powerful chaining your sweeps and submissions can be even against good wrestlers.

Of course once my guard is passed if I can't jailbreak I tend to break a little bit mentally. Big hole in my game.

 

[portland]

You may be right but I doubt I'll ever really quit pulling guard. I just absolutely love doing it. Besides you are really undervaluing how powerful chaining your sweeps and submissions can be even against good wrestlers.

Of course once my guard is passed if I can't jailbreak I tend to break a little bit mentally. Big hole in my game.

Exactly how i feel!

 

[Neuro]

I have always loved takedowns and wrestling, judo, etc. but in terms of focus, I mainly focused on my guard. In fact, oddly enough, I focused the most on TDs and guard sweeps, and the least on guard passing.

My ability to takedown, but inability to pass, eventually began to frustrate me, and so only in the last two months or so have I focused hugely on guard passing, which I now enjoy more than anything, and plan to see how this goes for me, tournament wise.

However, there are two frustrations in developing a top game (neither of which preclude its awesomeness, but they do exist):

a) people can sit guard, and immediately take away my ability to do something that I've spent many, many more hours than them doing, and therefore also taking away my ability to get my 2 points. Now, I can still pass of course, but this ability to simply avoid having to do the takedowns in competition can be frustrating.

b) The larger worry-- no matter how much I work my wrestling, or my judo, it is doubtful (nigh, impossible) that I will EVER become a truly elite wrestler. I mean, elite? Most D-1 Wrestlers (not All-Americans, I'm just talking about dudes on the team) have been wrestling since they were in Middle School if not younger. While not impossible, it is difficult to catch up to these guys, in terms of skill level. So, against these guys, my most high-percentage option might then be to pull guard, BUT, I have not practiced my guard as much as a guard player has, have I? Will it still be enough? It depends. I digress, however----->

Sometimes you just gotta play what you love. Guard playing might be the most successful method (or most popular)in jiu jitsu right now (rather undeniably) but look at someone like Rodolfo. Of course he's the exception (or one of them-- Celsinho, Jacare, etc.) but that doesn't mean with enough work it's an impossibility.

These are just some thoughts of mine, amateur BJJ artist that I am.


edit: Also, some have pointed out that due to the high amount of people simply pulling guard, the person who focues 70 or 80% of his training on passing the guard has perhaps the greatest advantage of all. I love guard passing. Just some thoughts....

 

[nismovin]

to all these gaurd pull haters ... why dont yall just stick with wrestling with wrestlers? lol... just kidding

 

[Lasse]

I do not agree with you about the 1000 trainings of wrestling not being as good as 1000 trainings of grappling.

The way I see it...

A+ wrestling and C level jiu jitsu gets you a HELL of a lot further than A+ BJJ and C level wrestling. This applies to both MMA and BJJ competitions.

I think this wasn't as apparent back in the day (90s and partially into 2000s) because there were not many high level wrestlers cross training and thus the majority of BJJ practitioners had poor wrestling.

If the type of opponent that is most difficult in both MMA and BJJ competitions is the "elite wrestler with great sub defense"... the solution is to become one yourself (or try your best to do it).

Initially, it is the very same reason why most people (at least in my opinion) started doing BJJ. Because Royce Gracie showed how it was such a difficult style to beat in the 90s.

Don't mix straight grappling competitions up with MMA competitions. For MMA the current rule-set has the guard passer as a winning position, hence I completely agree with you that if you want to fight under those rules takedowns are a lot more important than the bottom work.

Now however for grappling competitions I definitely do not agree with you about this.

Like I said it is simple maths. People only have a certain amount of training sessions in them every week. You can't do takedowns half assed, either you focus hard on it so you can put a strategy together from being better at takedowns or you pull guard.

Going to wrestling 1 time a week is worthless when it comes to competitions. You will of course be a lot better at takedowns but every real wrestler and judoka will still take you down. If you fight against them at what they are best at you risk ending up with your guard passed and with the takedown points behind. Also without the option to ever stand up as they will most likely just score more points.

With that logic we understand that if you want to do wrestling/judo you need to put in time and effort there. Preferably about as many times as you do BJJ every week unless you're some monster who can practice 2 times per day and not suffer from overtraining and injuries. So say 8 trainings per week and you split it 4-4 to get an advantage over your peers in the standup.

This means the guard puller will spend 2 times more time doing his thing. Which creates the balance of BJJ and the "match up" answer rather than one style being superior.

I mean stating that one style is superior and the others are weaker than that is a big ass statement which goes against too many great grapplers for me to want to agree with it.

 

[brollikk]

Again, the mentality " I will never catch up to the D-1 wrestlers... " eludes me.

How exactly will you catch up to the elite BJJers then? Most of them have also been training since they were 4.


I've made it as far as brown belt so far after 8 hard years and I am seriously evaluating how to progress the most efficiently at this point.

In addition to rolling experience with a huge variety of partners, I took a look at some matchups in both BJJ and MMA.

Although you can still definitely find a successful guard puller in MMA (such as Rafa Mendes), one can argue that his ability to finish a takedown that starts in his guard is quite elite.

Regardless, the two best 155 lbers in MMA are decent in BJJ (brown belts) however, their wrestling is their forte. Ben Henderson and Frankie Edgar both did outstanding in college wrestling and have used it to defeat guys that have elite BJJ such as BJ Penn.

Chris Weidman defeated Damien Maia who is also most definitely one of the best BJJers.

King Mo defeated Roger Gracie. Arguably the greatest of all time in Bjj.

Fabricio Werdum looked like absolute crap against UBEREEM who is not really an elite wrestler but had enough takedown defense.

Now in BJJ, Weidman won the ADCC trials even though he only trained BJJ for a short while. The same can be said for Ben Henderson in the mundials brown belt division.

Another good example in just grappling is Rustam Chsiev. He is an elite wrestler and has excellent sub defense, but really "weak" BJJ fundamentals compared to the bjj elite. Regardless of such, he defeated the vast majority of his competition and went the distance with the likes of Andre Galvao, and Joao Assis.

It almost seems like these guys with the top notch wrestling just need a little bit more time and can easily themselves be considered elite in BJJ as well.


Now some more observations...

I do not consider myself an elite wrestler by any means, but I definitely have rolled with a large number of people in BJJ that I felt I could easily out-wrestle if it came down to it.

Against most of these people, it was MORE than easy to just focus on creating a little distance from the bottom (depending on what guard I was using) and initiating a takedown. In fact, doing that (when I could for sure out-wrestle the opponent) seemed a lot easier than setting up a sweep from a more conventional guard position.

Now this obviously is not the end-all be all, as it is only my opinion... but at this point I am convinced that focusing at least equally (if not more) on wrestling is the fastest way to improve in BJJ.

 

[brollikk]

And yes I agree with you about 1 time a week not being enough to catch up to the elite.

Most people who are really good at wrestling focused on it at least for their entire high school career and college career which is 8 seasons (and most likely off-season training).

At least as of now, I do have the luxery of training multiple times a day and definitely choose to split my time as evenly as possible between BJJ and wrestling, however I do understand the dilemma of someone who is not able to train as many sessions and wants to get better at BJJ (but doesn't have wrestling).

I also understand stylistically that if you are just "working on your wrestling" once a week and come across and elite wrestler/judoka in competition, it would be foolish to play to their strength by trying to out wrestle them. In such a circumstance, I do feel that using the guard and NOT conceding the points would strategically be the best for that match.

However, if the main issue is just a lack of time to train, then honestly I feel that you will have a hard time catching up to the elite in wrestling AND bjj. The best you can do is train smart and not neglect either aspect and take what you can get.

 

[AgonyandIrony]

I have always loved takedowns and wrestling, judo, etc. but in terms of focus, I mainly focused on my guard. In fact, oddly enough, I focused the most on TDs and guard sweeps, and the least on guard passing.

My ability to takedown, but inability to pass, eventually began to frustrate me, and so only in the last two months or so have I focused hugely on guard passing, which I now enjoy more than anything, and plan to see how this goes for me, tournament wise.

However, there are two frustrations in developing a top game (neither of which preclude its awesomeness, but they do exist):

a) people can sit guard, and immediately take away my ability to do something that I've spent many, many more hours than them doing, and therefore also taking away my ability to get my 2 points. Now, I can still pass of course, but this ability to simply avoid having to do the takedowns in competition can be frustrating.

b) The larger worry-- no matter how much I work my wrestling, or my judo, it is doubtful (nigh, impossible) that I will EVER become a truly elite wrestler. I mean, elite? Most D-1 Wrestlers (not All-Americans, I'm just talking about dudes on the team) have been wrestling since they were in Middle School if not younger. While not impossible, it is difficult to catch up to these guys, in terms of skill level. So, against these guys, my most high-percentage option might then be to pull guard, BUT, I have not practiced my guard as much as a guard player has, have I? Will it still be enough? It depends. I digress, however----->

Sometimes you just gotta play what you love. Guard playing might be the most successful method (or most popular)in jiu jitsu right now (rather undeniably) but look at someone like Rodolfo. Of course he's the exception (or one of them-- Celsinho, Jacare, etc.) but that doesn't mean with enough work it's an impossibility.

These are just some thoughts of mine, amateur BJJ artist that I am.


edit: Also, some have pointed out that due to the high amount of people simply pulling guard, the person who focues 70 or 80% of his training on passing the guard has perhaps the greatest advantage of all. I love guard passing. Just some thoughts....

I think I'm going to start focusing on guard passing. My sweeps usually allow me to end up in side control or sometimes in mount. I just really...REALLY suck at passing guard. If I can't knee cut I'll bait the armbar, or lately use the singapore sling submission.

Any advice? What really helped you out when you refocused on guard passing? Personally I have no idea how it can be more exciting than guardwork but maybe it's just my mentality. Right now I find sweeping more exciting than passing guard (which is why I pull guard) Since I use the rubber guard a lot the omoplata sweep is fucking money.

 

[Lasse]

Now in BJJ, Weidman won the ADCC trials even though he only trained BJJ for a short while. The same can be said for Ben Henderson in the mundials brown belt division.

Another good example in just grappling is Rustam Chsiev. He is an elite wrestler and has excellent sub defense, but really "weak" BJJ fundamentals compared to the bjj elite. Regardless of such, he defeated the vast majority of his competition and went the distance with the likes of Andre Galvao, and Joao Assis.

It almost seems like these guys with the top notch wrestling just need a little bit more time and can easily themselves be considered elite in BJJ as well.


Now some more observations...

I do not consider myself an elite wrestler by any means, but I definitely have rolled with a large number of people in BJJ that I felt I could easily out-wrestle if it came down to it.

Against most of these people, it was MORE than easy to just focus on creating a little distance from the bottom (depending on what guard I was using) and initiating a takedown. In fact, doing that (when I could for sure out-wrestle the opponent) seemed a lot easier than setting up a sweep from a more conventional guard position.

Now this obviously is not the end-all be all, as it is only my opinion... but at this point I am convinced that focusing at least equally (if not more) on wrestling is the fastest way to improve in BJJ.

I agree with you about takedowns being highly important in MMA no need to argue for it, we are on the same page.

Also if you start doing wrestling equally with BJJ now when you are a brown, won't it mean you will have done a lot more BJJ than wrestling?

I don't follow your logic though....Weidman won an ADCC trials after 15 years of wrestling or whatever he has whereas Rafael Mendes who trained BJJ for 10 years actually won the ADCC.

People LOVE to talk about the wrestlers without mentioning that they have been wrestling since they were 8-9 years old many times.

The thing is that Rustam or Weidman didn't win because even though they may have the best takedowns they have focused 80% on takedowns and 20% on guard-passing. Which means they may do well VS the people who are used to being the best wrestlers/judokas in their division but probably worse VS great guard-pullers who are always below great passers.

I am not trying to deny the importance of wrestling or that you can use it to great means just questioning how decided you are about a question this complex. If people want to win the absolutes from a lower weight-class it again seems like you have a better shot if you don't rely on always being on top.

 

[brollikk]

I agree with you about takedowns being highly important in MMA no need to argue for it, we are on the same page.

Also if you start doing wrestling equally with BJJ now when you are a brown, won't it mean you will have done a lot more BJJ than wrestling?

I don't follow your logic though....Weidman won an ADCC trials after 15 years of wrestling or whatever he has whereas Rafael Mendes who trained BJJ for 10 years actually won the ADCC.

People LOVE to talk about the wrestlers without mentioning that they have been wrestling since they were 8-9 years old many times.

The thing is that Rustam or Weidman didn't win because even though they may have the best takedowns they have focused 80% on takedowns and 20% on guard-passing. Which means they may do well VS the people who are used to being the best wrestlers/judokas in their division but probably worse VS great guard-pullers who are always below great passers.

I am not trying to deny the importance of wrestling or that you can use it to great means just questioning how decided you are about a question this complex. If people want to win the absolutes from a lower weight-class it again seems like you have a better shot if you don't rely on always being on top.

I absolutely agree that this question is complex. My stance on this is just based on what I've seen/experienced thus far.

Fighting bigger opponents in absolute divisions most definitely is easier using intricate guard work and not conceding points (assuming you are a little guy).

Grappling in your division however... I feel like working hard to be the biggest/strongest guy in your weight class is something you always should strive hard for.

And regarding the time each of those people spent... I feel that not everyone improves at the same rate for various reasons.

Rafa Mendes is an incredible athlete and a smart one at that. He specifically trained for the Mundials and ADCC in the smartest way he found and succeeded with 10 years under his belt.

Weidman/Henderson/Edgar/Rustam I believe all succeeded in relatively hard tournaments (D-1 nationals in college and not sure for Rustam in his country). They then crossed over into a different sport (albeit similar) with different rules.

With how much less "specific" training they've had for the bjj events than their elite peers, I feel that they are doing exceptionally well. In fact, they are improving at BJJ faster than nearly ANY normal person.

 

[Lasse]

I think I'm going to start focusing on guard passing. My sweeps usually allow me to end up in side control or sometimes in mount. I just really...REALLY suck at passing guard. If I can't knee cut I'll bait the armbar, or lately use the singapore sling submission.

Any advice? What really helped you out when you refocused on guard passing? Personally I have no idea how it can be more exciting than guardwork but maybe it's just my mentality. Right now I find sweeping more exciting than passing guard (which is why I pull guard) Since I use the rubber guard a lot the omoplata sweep is fucking money.

You have a SYSTEM for your guard, and you need a SYSTEM for your guard passing. You need to chain techniques together and you need answers to "what if's". You step your leg in to get the knee-shield, WHAT IF he hugs it, WHAT IF he attempts to hug it, WHAT IF he actually gets a DLR on it, WHAT IF you start passing but he etc etc etc.

The skill disparity has to be pretty big(Unless they are new white-belts) if you want to actually hit your first guard-passing technique. The same way why getting an armbar just by starting to do the armbar steps is impossible and you need to "chain it".

 

[AgonyandIrony]

You have a SYSTEM for your guard, and you need a SYSTEM for your guard passing. You need to chain techniques together and you need answers to "what if's". You step your leg in to get the knee-shield, WHAT IF he hugs it, WHAT IF he attempts to hug it, WHAT IF he actually gets a DLR on it, WHAT IF you start passing but he etc etc etc.

The skill disparity has to be pretty big(Unless they are new white-belts) if you want to actually hit your first guard-passing technique. The same way why getting an armbar just by starting to do the armbar steps is impossible and you need to "chain it".

Awesome makes tons of sense. I for some reason have failed to really see it as such. I never really considered guard passing as a system but you've pointed out a major flaw in my thinking. I put so much thought into my guard, constantly attacking and I haven't really brought that mentality to my passing game. Can you suggest some techniques for a shitty passer to start to learn? Hopefully some that I can chain together?

Again, awesome post.

 

[Lasse]

I absolutely agree that this question is complex. My stance on this is just based on what I've seen/experienced thus far.

Fighting bigger opponents in absolute divisions most definitely is easier using intricate guard work and not conceding points (assuming you are a little guy).

Grappling in your division however... I feel like working hard to be the biggest/strongest guy in your weight class is something you always should strive hard for.

And regarding the time each of those people spent... I feel that not everyone improves at the same rate for various reasons.

Rafa Mendes is an incredible athlete and a smart one at that. He specifically trained for the Mundials and ADCC in the smartest way he found and succeeded with 10 years under his belt.

Weidman/Henderson/Edgar/Rustam I believe all succeeded in relatively hard tournaments (D-1 nationals in college and not sure for Rustam in his country). They then crossed over into a different sport (albeit similar) with different rules.

With how much less "specific" training they've had for the bjj events than their elite peers, I feel that they are doing exceptionally well. In fact, they are improving at BJJ faster than nearly ANY normal person.

Meh, I think the problem is that BJJ still isn't a sport where people have trained since young ages. So when a wrestler comes to town with 10 years experience in a sport VERY VERY similar to BJJ compared to sports most people who start BJJ has experiences with, you see results.

I think if everybody were like Mendes starting when they were 12 or even earlier then no wrestler would be changing sport to dominate the submission grapplers with as much experience.

I think this naturally overhypes wrestling compared to BJJ within grappling competitions. People being amazed that someone with 15 years wrestling learns BJJ fast should also be surprised by how fast someone with 15 years of BJJ learns no-gi. They share a whole lot.

Also add to do this that the wrestlers has been training to use their muscles in this sort of way for over a decade when they start BJJ.

 

[nefti]

you can learn and compete in jiu jitsu, where would a grown man start learning and start competing in wrestling?