99% of all political deals that have ever occured are "quid pro quo." It's the only way-

[Gundarmyx]

Then explain 2016 for me

but but but obama!!

 

[*Z*]

Governments ALWAYS expect to get something in return when they give somebody billions of dollars.

Yes governments, not the president personally.

 

[*Z*]

God, it's like stupidity trickles down

I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand the difference between US interest and a presidents personal interests.

 

[Sycho Sid]

No rules need to be rewritten. People need to not be morons.

big ask

 

[Ophydian]

So its not in our interest to investigate Bidens dealings in the Ukraine? Its in our national interests to investigate corruption as a condition to receive aid. Also, it just so happens the national interests and his political career interests coincide here. But guess what? They also did during the Russia investigation. So shrug.

It’s been investigated internally to Ukraine and sorry Charlie but Biden was working on behalf of the US when he went. It’s not as if he’s a Trump, Kushner or Giuliani and going rogue. He was tasked by the President of the United States to do this. It was also authorized by the Republican Senate and House.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

No rules need to be rewritten. People need to not be morons.

If Donald Trump gets away with extortion in exchange for a politically favorable investigation, the rules need changing.

 

[Jack V Savage]

If Donald Trump gets away with extortion in exchange for a politically favorable investigation, the rules need changing.

Rules and laws against that already exist.

 

[franklinstower]

You know what a widespread and public cult is refered to? Its called a cult-ure. What we have in America is cult-ure of idol worship. Not just political idols but also sports figures, entertainers, religious leaders, gurus, academics, news media, ect. Everyone has their idols to whom, or to what, they believe in and follow but are unable to see through that particular brand of bs.

So when you call Trump a cult leader and his (blind) followers cultists I don't particularly disagree with you. But you say this like its unique, new, or extreme. The same people calling Trump supporters cultists are the same people who defend Joe & Hunter Biden, look the other way from all the Clinton corruption, vant see through the Russia hoax, and pretend the Obama administration didn't just use the intelligence comm and fisa courts to spy on and attempt to frame a rival presidential candidate on his way into the white house. But if the media tells them to be outraged over two scoops of ice cream thete they are.

Its just so stupid watching you guys, on both sides, get led around by your noses with recycled ideas and narratives put out by prominant media and political cults. For someone like me who can see all of this its just mind numbing. Do you really care that Trump asked Ukraine to look into potential Biden corruption or have you just been told to care by your cult leaders? And if you do care then how come I don't see you calling out Biden cult members who defend his actions and cant see through the BS? Or Hillary and Obama cult members who defend them till this day? The answer is simple...you, like most everyone, may just be a cult member yourself.

First of all I don't defend ANY of those people against credible accusations so most of what you are referring to does not apply to me in any way.

The rest of your point has some merit but not as much as you think. I will agree with you that generalized corruption is a problem everywhere and that people do tend to have bias when their own team is the side being accused. I will not argue against that and I am unpopular on the left here because I will just as vehemently call out our side as the Trumpers.

On the other hand you are failing to make subtle distinctions between Trump and the rest of the pack including the rest of republicans. Trump is WORSE than the rest in terms of corruption so there is not equality between him and the rest of republicans or democrats. That in itself ought to make one speak out agsint Trump more than others.

But there is another more subtle but also more dangerous thing about Trump. Whereas the other politicians lie to the public about everything and still at least attempt to stand for honestly and integrity and honor Trump lies to other people and encourages others to do so too. He wants us divided, hotly. He wants us angry, he wants us to lie to defend him and he doesn't mind that he turns a bunch of people into liars too.

He is a needle mover in this respect. Its as if he is saying "Look our country is a corrupt one, we all lie, and steal, and break our word to others and lets just admit to that and get on with it." Trump wants the concept of morality and honor and integrity and even the rule of law to be pushed out of the way (in principle) so that we can REALLY get on with self interest. He is totally driven by self interest.

As a christian you must see the difference between supporting a politician who is corrupt but that you believe is not corrupt, and supporting one that you know is anyway. Obviously there is no sin in supporting a politician that you think is honest. Trump is asking us to take that next step, as a country, towards corruption in our souls, to be willing to support HIM even though HE violates our foundational principles. This is the great danger he poses to our morality and to us as human beings.

You might say that the dems support candidates they KNOW are corrupt. I agree to a certain point, but not to the degree to which Trump supporters are doing, and also at least their leaders are trying to keep everyone in the dark about it to protect the integrity that we do have left as a nation. Its crap compared to real honest truth tellers but is it better than Trump anyway.

Trump is normalizing a new level of corruption AND a new level of support for that corruption based on tribalism. This is much more deeply sinful and threatens everything we still have, as haggard as it may be, on new levels and brings us down to new lows morally.


Edit. One other distinction that needs to be made is that not all cults are harmful as per the official definition and use of the term. Trump is a "Harmful Cult"-- not an innocent cult of personality.

 

[Son of Ireland 34]

It’s been investigated internally to Ukraine and sorry Charlie but Biden was working on behalf of the US when he went. It’s not as if he’s a Trump, Kushner or Giuliani and going rogue. He was tasked by the President of the United States to do this. It was also authorized by the Republican Senate and House.

Ok, where did the money go? Also, why does he get to say that he forced them to fire the prosecutor that just so happened to be investigating his sons company? Ukraine got the aid without doing what Trump asked. Case close. End of story.

 

[Ophydian]

Ok, where did the money go? Also, why does he get to say that he forced them to fire the prosecutor that just so happened to be investigating his sons company? Ukraine got the aid without doing what Trump asked. Case close. End of story.

He held up aid for a favor to look into his political rival. That actually happen. Just because Ukraine finally got aid does not make the crime go away.

If I tell you to pay me $1000 a week or I’ll beat you up is that illegal even though you never paid me?

Biden can say whatever he wants. Was it dumb? Yes. But it wasn’t illegal.

Answer me this. If it was well known that Biden did something so corrupt in 2015, why are we only hearing about it now when he’s running for office? Why hasn’t the DoJ filed charges against Biden? If the evidence is clear as day then why ask Ukraine to help? Because lawyers for the President told him how bad it would look for the DoJ to investigate a political rival using hearsay and CT as evidence so he asked the Ukraine to light the fire for him and it backfired.

 

[44nutman]

I remember when Abraham Lincoln asked Prussia for dirt on Stephen Douglas.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

Rules and laws against that already exist.

Get over it

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

It didn't happen

There's no evidence it happened

Okay, key witnesses have corroborated it but witnesses are notorious liars unless they exonerate the president

Okay it might've happened

It didn't happen, but if it did, it's all fine, but it never happened, but hypothetically if it looks like it might have happened, everything is fine.

 

[Too Rolling Stoned]

99% of international political deals are to investigate your opponent before an election?

Joe Biden isn’t Trump’s opponent. We still don’t even know who is...

 

[vengeful]

You're conflating quid pro quo with "consideration." When you're issuing a government contract what is supposed to happen is party A gets something and Party B gets something in exchange.

What happened in this quid pro quo would be the US Government is giving something to Ukraine, and Ukraine is giving something to Donald Trump.....not the US Government. That's why it's an issue, if this contract terms were renegotiated in exchange that the US Government was benefiting from it and not the President personally then there wouldn't be an issue.

Think of it like this, all you Republicans on this forum seem to find a problem with Biden holding aid to Ukraine unless they fired a prosecutor....why because you assume that he did it for the benefit of himself and his family and not in the interest of the US. Biden claims it was because the prosecutor was corrupt therefore he was doing it for the benefit of the US, because that's a valid legal reason for doing it. It's how contracts are supposed to work.

 

[IGotAHugePeckah]

Doesn't matter if it's common place or not... you gotta be smart enough not to get caught doing that shit!

 

[Ophydian]

Graham is going to lose his god damn mind at the end of this. He’s now saying the Trump administration couldn’t had executed a QPQ because their Ukraine policy is to incoherent.

In layman’s terms, Graham is using the 2016 Trump line that he’s just too damn inexperienced to pull off a QPQ. I’m sure his Ukraine policy would had been a lot more coherent if Trump actually met with experts and not Devin Nunes coffee boy.

 

[grimballer]

He holds up the money and calls the guy and says "I need a favor". His favor was investigating someone who's also running for president. This is pretty cut and dry. Whether or not he should be removed from office for it is debatable, but it was certainly wrong. People that are supporting Trump during this are showing blind loyalty to party. This would be wrong regardless which party Trump belonged to.

sure, sure

If it was a democrat or Obama msm would say he’s tough on corruption n all the usual suspects would come here n parrot those talking points.

also how often you see presidents conversations being leaked like that?

it was a obvious partisan hit by same democrats who were pushing Russia delusion for over 3 years

 

[grimballer]

Biden was not acting in his own self interest. The republican lead Senate, in a bipartisan call, supported by Obama demanded Ukraine deal with its corrupt prosecutor if relations were to continue. Biden was chosen as the messenger. It could have just as easily been someone else chosen and the message would have been the same. The prosecutor must go.

All of these were also demanding the prosecutor go before Biden got involved.


- President of France
- President of Germany
- State Department
- US Embassy
- The EU
- The IMF
- The European Bank for Reconstruction and Development

So there is zero merit to this Biden accusation as there is no comparison to what Trump did.

Sure

so we’re suppose to believe his son getting the gig is purely on his merits n it was just a coincidence...

even if we accept that ridiculous hypothesis

His son shouldnt taken that job knowing his father was involved in removing the leading prosecutor investigating that company.

Joe himself should’ve told his son to not take that job cause of a apparent conflict of interest.

now of course we’re also suppose to believe that both had no idea what was going on n weren’t aware that one is working for the company the other is investigating.

 

[vengeful]

Sure

so we’re suppose to believe his son getting the gig is purely on his merits n it was just a coincidence...

even if we accept that ridiculous hypothesis

His son shouldnt taken that job knowing his father was involved in removing the leading prosecutor investigating that company.

Joe himself should’ve told his son to not take that job cause of a apparent conflict of interest.

now of course we’re also suppose to believe that both had no idea what was going on n weren’t aware that one is working for the company the other is investigating.

Apply those same things to Michael Cohen acting as Trump's attorney while simultaneously opening up a consulting firm in areas he had no expertise in but was making hundreds of thousands of dollars a month from corporations wanting access to Trump.

That's not illegal, and nothing is wrong with that. Its only wrong if a favor by the government employee is traded in exchange for a benefit that's for personal gain.

Since conflicts of interests seems to be what you're focusing on, what are your thoughts about Trump maintaining his business holdings while in office--especially those where foreign governments frequent and he gets paid for them going to his hotels, also him vacationing to his own properties and having the tax payers essentially pay millions of dollars to him?