5x5 Question/Rant

Sherpa

Sherpa

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Forgive me if I insult any of you that are practitioners of the 5x5 method, but I am extremely confused and distraught. I have read countless logs and sample training programs on here and they are all 5x5 programs. 5x5 is a great program for a novice lifter (first 3 months touching a bar.) They are also great to use to deload between meets or when you need a week off/rehabbing.

5x5 programs are NOT meant to be the gold standard for getting strong, are they? Really people. I have worked out with numerous guys who have totaled 2300+; my brother totaled 2100 @ 308 recently. I have studied the Westside methods, studied what the guys at BIGIron do, and have read the science behind it. In between surgeries, I have seen myself make huge gains on different programs. 5x5 method is something I have used when injured to make sure my strength levels stay where I want them. Please don't tell me its great for fighters; I fought and did a westside split and was able to condition and make strength gains.

Every 5x5 I have seen posted here lacks some type of volume, accessory movements, or key components to getting stronger. Worst of all, they are just generically perscribed to people who want to know how to get strong. Lifters/fighters/boxers/dog groomers/whatever who really want to get strong don't need to see that 5x5 is the alpha and omega. NEWS FLASH: Bench Pressing 5x5, decline dumbell pressing a few sets, then running a mile will not help you get stronger. Starting Strength is a great book and Bill's work is greatly appreciated as well, but go heavy, get f***ing huge. Grow or die.

Sorry for this rant, but I am really getting tired of the 5x5. It is not the ultimate compromise between strength and conditioning. It is a waste of time if you are trying to get strong and it is a waste of time if you are a bodybuilder. 5X5 =/= Getting Strong. Period.

This is the strength and power forum. Get strong or get destroyed.
 
5x5 is good to start with as you said. I've never seen a guy come here with an 1100+ lb total get told to do the 5x5 (at that point I'm sure he wouldn't be asking something like that, but you get what I'm saying). If you look at the logs in the training logs section, all of the strongest guys (Enright, Donut, Zero, Fatty, Barut, NerdKing etc) all do a lot of assistance work and volume and not just the main lifts (except Lusst, that mother fucker is a freak of nature).

5x5 I think is great for beginners because at that point, they really don't have sticking points or things where assistance exercises will really help them, so it's better to let them use the big lifts and get the form down correctly. At least that's my opinion.
 
I am not getting your post, how can doing 5x5, with compound moves and done in a progressive manner NOT GET YOU STRONG?

if you are making progress on any routine, your strength is improving
 
fennway4414 said:
5x5 is good to start with as you said. I've never seen a guy come here with an 1100+ lb total get told to do the 5x5 (at that point I'm sure he wouldn't be asking something like that, but you get what I'm saying). If you look at the logs in the training logs section, all of the strongest guys (Enright, Donut, Zero, Fatty, Barut, NerdKing etc) all do a lot of assistance work and volume and not just the main lifts (except Lusst, that mother fucker is a freak of nature).

5x5 I think is great for beginners because at that point, they really don't have sticking points or things where assistance exercises will really help them, so it's better to let them use the big lifts and get the form down correctly. At least that's my opinion.
Click to expand...

I'm just tired of it being endlessly prescribed. There are other beginning regiments that can be done.
 
Sherpa said:
I'm just tired of it being endlessly prescribed. There are other beginning regiments that can be done.
Click to expand...

Definitely, and no one is denying that there are other programs, it's just the one that's prescribed here to leave a n00b with not as many options so they don't think about it as much, they just lift. Plus, like Wassung said, if it's getting you stronger, it's working.

I've been on the p/p/s like in the stickies for a long time now, and every time I consider moving to Westside or Sheiko or something like that, I talk myself out of it because I'm still making gains, and that's what it's all about.
 
Sherpa said:
I'm just tired of it being endlessly prescribed. There are other beginning regiments that can be done.
Click to expand...

Why? It works, and it works well if you don't fuck it up somehow. So why fuck with success?
 
Sherpa said:
5x5 is a great program for a novice lifter (first 3 months touching a bar.)

I have worked out with numerous guys who have totaled 2300+; my brother totaled 2100 @ 308 recently.
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If a guy does the 5x5 for 3 months and ends up with a 2300+ total I guess he should probably move on to other things.
 
The benefit of beginning with Rippetoe's Starting Strength or Starr's 5X5 is there are only a few exercises to learn. It is far better to learn to perform 5-6 exercises well than to perform many more with questionable form. Assistance exercises only become a concern after you have some considerable time under the bar when weaknesses and imbalances might develop.
 
I'm pretty sure 5x5 is the greatest routine in the history of mankind... I think al gore invented it...
 
Sherpa said:
Exactly the mentality that is spread around here, albeit less sarcastic.

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f13/my-routine-798717/
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f13/tweaking-my-program-798571/

First two threads I saw this morning. Makes me sad. 5x5 is not the starting point for everyone. People have gotten/still get strong without it.
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You're right, but it does do a good job setting up a starting point for people who don't know what they're doing in the gym, delivers results pretty consistently as far as cookie cutter routines go, lets people know they don't need 3x8 on 10 types of curls to train, and points them in the right direction. 5x5 recommendations are an easy way to steer a noob in a more enlightened direction. 5x5 works and it's simple.

I mean, people have gotten/still get strong with isolation exercises and HIT... but that doesn't mean we should reccomend them.




PS... No, I did not just liken WSB to HIT. I was just pointing out the flaw in your last argument.
 
Sherpa said:
Exactly the mentality that is spread around here, albeit less sarcastic.

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f13/my-routine-798717/
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f13/tweaking-my-program-798571/

First two threads I saw this morning. Makes me sad. 5x5 is not the starting point for everyone. People have gotten/still get strong without it.
Click to expand...

There are but 5x5 might be the most well documented (for free) and easy to pass on. I mean there's is Rip's SS program (my favorite) or Dan John's Rapid Ascent Program (which I'm using a tweaked version of now as I bridge from injured to getting my ass ready to lift real weight again), but 5x5 is so rediculously easy to learn and at the end of it you can do any of those lifts blinded folded.
 
Merrill said:
The benefit of beginning with Rippetoe's Starting Strength or Starr's 5X5 is there are only a few exercises to learn. It is far better to learn to perform 5-6 exercises well than to perform many more with questionable form. Assistance exercises only become a concern after you have some considerable time under the bar when weaknesses and imbalances might develop.
Click to expand...

All of the best lifters in the world still struggle with form. They constantly tweak and work on correcting. Why not start out with all the tools and work on refining them since life is a series of struggles.
 
Sherpa said:
All of the best lifters in the world still struggle with form. They constantly tweak and work on correcting. Why not start out with all the tools and work on refining them since life is a series of struggles.
Click to expand...

I still say it is easier to start a beginner with very few basic compound movements and have them practice them frequently. Then, slowly introduce additional movements. Learning to use all of the "tools" takes some time. Consider the fact that we are not in the presence of the new trainers here. We are not standing over their shoulders coaching them.

EDIT: I know Louie Simmons starts beginners out with box squats, chains, and bands, but he is physically there coaching them. There have been many articles that have been written by Dave Tate, Jim Wendler, Lou Simmons, and others on the WSB method. But it is still easier to start a beginner on the 5X5 or Starting Strength program.
 
^^ Or being coached. The beautiful thing about lifts like the power clean and the over head press is that as long as you leave your ego at the door (so you're not doing stupid shit like cutting your rom to satisfy said ego), and that there are just a few key pointers you need to remember to do the lift correctly for all intents and purposes and good form is reinforced because bad form makes the lefts harder to do.
 
All of the best lifters in the world still struggle with their form? What is your source on this statement, personal opinion, etc.
 
5x5 is a good way to build a solid strength foundation. If you disagree then you're dumb.
 
If I had a dollar for everytime someone told me that this routine, that program, some particular exercise, was worthless,,,I would be in early retirement.

I have heard this for 30 years about the following

20 rep squats
singles
anything over 3 reps
volume training
HIT
Westside
Light/Heavy
Railroads
Front squats
Full Squats
Timed Total Tonnage
Assistance Exercises
Full Body Workouts
Cardio
Aerobics
Wind Sprints
Swimming
Lunges
bench press
overhead press
deadlifts
Push/Pull
Finnish Deadlift Routine
Ladders
Sit-ups
one armed moves
Sheiko
Smolov
partials
power rack moves

and that is just off the top of my head
 
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