5x5 Question/Rant

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by Sherpa, Jun 16, 2008.

  1. Sherpa Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,989
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    From: Miami. Now: Memphis
    Forgive me if I insult any of you that are practitioners of the 5x5 method, but I am extremely confused and distraught. I have read countless logs and sample training programs on here and they are all 5x5 programs. 5x5 is a great program for a novice lifter (first 3 months touching a bar.) They are also great to use to deload between meets or when you need a week off/rehabbing.

    5x5 programs are NOT meant to be the gold standard for getting strong, are they? Really people. I have worked out with numerous guys who have totaled 2300+; my brother totaled 2100 @ 308 recently. I have studied the Westside methods, studied what the guys at BIGIron do, and have read the science behind it. In between surgeries, I have seen myself make huge gains on different programs. 5x5 method is something I have used when injured to make sure my strength levels stay where I want them. Please don't tell me its great for fighters; I fought and did a westside split and was able to condition and make strength gains.

    Every 5x5 I have seen posted here lacks some type of volume, accessory movements, or key components to getting stronger. Worst of all, they are just generically perscribed to people who want to know how to get strong. Lifters/fighters/boxers/dog groomers/whatever who really want to get strong don't need to see that 5x5 is the alpha and omega. NEWS FLASH: Bench Pressing 5x5, decline dumbell pressing a few sets, then running a mile will not help you get stronger. Starting Strength is a great book and Bill's work is greatly appreciated as well, but go heavy, get f***ing huge. Grow or die.

    Sorry for this rant, but I am really getting tired of the 5x5. It is not the ultimate compromise between strength and conditioning. It is a waste of time if you are trying to get strong and it is a waste of time if you are a bodybuilder. 5X5 =/= Getting Strong. Period.

    This is the strength and power forum. Get strong or get destroyed.
     
  2. 5x5 is good to start with as you said. I've never seen a guy come here with an 1100+ lb total get told to do the 5x5 (at that point I'm sure he wouldn't be asking something like that, but you get what I'm saying). If you look at the logs in the training logs section, all of the strongest guys (Enright, Donut, Zero, Fatty, Barut, NerdKing etc) all do a lot of assistance work and volume and not just the main lifts (except Lusst, that mother fucker is a freak of nature).

    5x5 I think is great for beginners because at that point, they really don't have sticking points or things where assistance exercises will really help them, so it's better to let them use the big lifts and get the form down correctly. At least that's my opinion.
     
  3. Keith Wassung <img src="http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4586/

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Charleston, SC
    I am not getting your post, how can doing 5x5, with compound moves and done in a progressive manner NOT GET YOU STRONG?

    if you are making progress on any routine, your strength is improving
     
  4. Sherpa Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,989
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    From: Miami. Now: Memphis
    I'm just tired of it being endlessly prescribed. There are other beginning regiments that can be done.
     
  5. theNuge Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,645
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Twin Cities --> Minnesota --> USA
    And there are. I'm a novice and I was recommended WSFSB.
     
  6. Definitely, and no one is denying that there are other programs, it's just the one that's prescribed here to leave a n00b with not as many options so they don't think about it as much, they just lift. Plus, like Wassung said, if it's getting you stronger, it's working.

    I've been on the p/p/s like in the stickies for a long time now, and every time I consider moving to Westside or Sheiko or something like that, I talk myself out of it because I'm still making gains, and that's what it's all about.
     
  7. Cap'n <img src="http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/1955/

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    5,609
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why? It works, and it works well if you don't fuck it up somehow. So why fuck with success?
     
  8. Old Man Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Messages:
    7,121
    Likes Received:
    153
    Location:
    New York City
    If a guy does the 5x5 for 3 months and ends up with a 2300+ total I guess he should probably move on to other things.
     
  9. Merrill Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Messages:
    2,288
    Likes Received:
    0
    The benefit of beginning with Rippetoe's Starting Strength or Starr's 5X5 is there are only a few exercises to learn. It is far better to learn to perform 5-6 exercises well than to perform many more with questionable form. Assistance exercises only become a concern after you have some considerable time under the bar when weaknesses and imbalances might develop.
     
  10. Urban Savage Mystic

    Joined:
    May 16, 2003
    Messages:
    16,927
    Likes Received:
    38
    Location:
    Sippin on sunshine
    I'm pretty sure 5x5 is the greatest routine in the history of mankind... I think al gore invented it...
     
  11. Sherpa Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,989
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    From: Miami. Now: Memphis
  12. w0cyru01 Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,642
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Louisville
  13. Urban Savage Mystic

    Joined:
    May 16, 2003
    Messages:
    16,927
    Likes Received:
    38
    Location:
    Sippin on sunshine
    You're right, but it does do a good job setting up a starting point for people who don't know what they're doing in the gym, delivers results pretty consistently as far as cookie cutter routines go, lets people know they don't need 3x8 on 10 types of curls to train, and points them in the right direction. 5x5 recommendations are an easy way to steer a noob in a more enlightened direction. 5x5 works and it's simple.

    I mean, people have gotten/still get strong with isolation exercises and HIT... but that doesn't mean we should reccomend them.




    PS... No, I did not just liken WSB to HIT. I was just pointing out the flaw in your last argument.
     
  14. B3rserk3R Brown Belt

    Joined:
    May 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Whale's Vagina
    There are but 5x5 might be the most well documented (for free) and easy to pass on. I mean there's is Rip's SS program (my favorite) or Dan John's Rapid Ascent Program (which I'm using a tweaked version of now as I bridge from injured to getting my ass ready to lift real weight again), but 5x5 is so rediculously easy to learn and at the end of it you can do any of those lifts blinded folded.
     
  15. Sherpa Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,989
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    From: Miami. Now: Memphis
    All of the best lifters in the world still struggle with form. They constantly tweak and work on correcting. Why not start out with all the tools and work on refining them since life is a series of struggles.
     
  16. Merrill Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Messages:
    2,288
    Likes Received:
    0
    I still say it is easier to start a beginner with very few basic compound movements and have them practice them frequently. Then, slowly introduce additional movements. Learning to use all of the "tools" takes some time. Consider the fact that we are not in the presence of the new trainers here. We are not standing over their shoulders coaching them.

    EDIT: I know Louie Simmons starts beginners out with box squats, chains, and bands, but he is physically there coaching them. There have been many articles that have been written by Dave Tate, Jim Wendler, Lou Simmons, and others on the WSB method. But it is still easier to start a beginner on the 5X5 or Starting Strength program.
     
  17. B3rserk3R Brown Belt

    Joined:
    May 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Whale's Vagina
    ^^ Or being coached. The beautiful thing about lifts like the power clean and the over head press is that as long as you leave your ego at the door (so you're not doing stupid shit like cutting your rom to satisfy said ego), and that there are just a few key pointers you need to remember to do the lift correctly for all intents and purposes and good form is reinforced because bad form makes the lefts harder to do.
     
  18. Keith Wassung <img src="http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4586/

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Charleston, SC
    All of the best lifters in the world still struggle with their form? What is your source on this statement, personal opinion, etc.
     
  19. ThinkGreen Der √úbermensch

    Joined:
    May 1, 2007
    Messages:
    14,201
    Likes Received:
    279
    Location:
    San Diego
    5x5 is a good way to build a solid strength foundation. If you disagree then you're dumb.
     
  20. Keith Wassung <img src="http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4586/

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Charleston, SC
    If I had a dollar for everytime someone told me that this routine, that program, some particular exercise, was worthless,,,I would be in early retirement.

    I have heard this for 30 years about the following

    20 rep squats
    singles
    anything over 3 reps
    volume training
    HIT
    Westside
    Light/Heavy
    Railroads
    Front squats
    Full Squats
    Timed Total Tonnage
    Assistance Exercises
    Full Body Workouts
    Cardio
    Aerobics
    Wind Sprints
    Swimming
    Lunges
    bench press
    overhead press
    deadlifts
    Push/Pull
    Finnish Deadlift Routine
    Ladders
    Sit-ups
    one armed moves
    Sheiko
    Smolov
    partials
    power rack moves

    and that is just off the top of my head
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.