5 Myths about the Atomic Bomb (as used in WWII)

[ToetotheFace]

Japan have got some balls playing the victim in World War 2 because of the US' use of A-bombs. The Japanese acted like absolute animals in China and SE Asia, they treated enemy combatants and civilians like insects, the astonishing brutality of what they did in China was easily on the level of the Nazis.

How they have the nerve to turn the argument on the US while completely trying to dodge responsibility for their atrocities is unbelievable and shows how much of a bunch of sociopaths they were (maybe still are).

What they did in Nanjing was so bad that it actually disgusted the Nazi, but it doesn't necessarily take a sociopath to do those things under the mixture of mob mentality, nationalism, and hatred of the Chinese that they were in.

US didn't get justice for Nanjing, and certainly not pearl harbor with the atomic bombs. They killed somewhere between 200,000-300,000 citizens with the bombing, then you have to add on another maybe 100-150 thousand citizens out of their bombing raids before the atomic bomb.

They have taken responsibility for what they did, yes there are some revisionists out there but that is like saying America is a bunch of Nazis because a minority of our citizens are neo-nazis who don't believe in the holocaust. They are definitely still too nationalistic, but at least they haven't made a serious attempt to rebuild their military and are instead directing their spending toward the economy. America still pumps billions of dollars in to the Military, and it isn't like America has made a great stand to take responsibility for all the citizens their military killed in WWII.

Now I do think America was the side with better intentions in that war. And there were reasons for some of what we did, but we were still killing citizens as prolifically and probably far more prolifically than Japan with our bombings. Just pointing out how biased and oversimplified your reasoning seems.

 

[lts5025]

No, he's saying that it's funny how it's just assumed that, unless otherwise stated, nuclear bombs are American.

Got it. The "as if it were" usually implies that it's not what's being stated.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Let's also remember that while Nazi war criminals had to go into hiding many of the psychopaths in the Japanese army just returned home and went on with their lives with no fear of prosecution or jail.

Shiro Ishii probably being the most famous of these cases.

A significant percentage of "ex"-Nazis were recruited by the CIA under Operation Paperclip. Many of them went on to have successful careers with NASA etc.

 

[oldshadow]

Article here (link).

In short:

Myth 1 - the bomb ended the war. According to minutes of the Japanese meetings, the Russians entering the war against Japan (and violating their non-aggression pact) led to Japan surrendering.

Myth 2 - the bomb saved half a million lives. The bomb saved 193 000, including 40 000 American lives.

Myth 3 - the only alternative to the bomb was an invasion of Japan. The other two options were a demonstration of the bomb or accepting Japan's conditional surrender (they agreed to Japan's only condition in the "unconditional" surrender)

Myth 4 - the Japanese were warned. There were never any warnings specifically for the cities that were targeted.

Myth 5 - the bomb was timed to gain a diplomatic advantage over Russia and proved a “master card” in early Cold War politics. The bombs were used according to military planning, not diplomatic advantage, and were used as soon as they were ready.

1-Yes the war was going to end even without the Russians and without the bomb.
However Japan wanted terms and the best ones possible and knew the U.S. did not want to try and take Japan.

2- Not sure of the number but by the time we got to this stage of the war we were tired of it and just wanted it to end with as few more American lives lost as possible.

3- See 1 and 2 above we were tired of it. They were going to drag it out to get the best terms possible and this was known.

4- Of course we didn't tell them which cities. We just said we have a big ass bomb and were going to use it unless they surrendered unconditionally now.

5- Yea I agree.

We were not going to waste anymore American lives in that war if possible and that's the way 99% of Americans felt.

Hell we did more damage in other bombing campaigns in life and property damage.

The only thing the atomic bombs were is psychological warfare mostly.

 

[Diamond Jim]

1-Yes the war was going to end even without the Russians and without the bomb.
However Japan wanted terms and the best ones possible and knew the U.S. want to try and take Japan.

2- Not sure of the number but by the time we got to this stage of the war we were tired of it and just wanted it to end with as few more American lives lost as possible.

3- See 1 and 2 above we were tired of it. They were going to drag it out to get the best terms possible and this was known.

4- Of course we didn't tell them which cities. We just said we have a big ass bomb and were going to use it unless they surrendered unconditionally now.

5- Yea I agree.

We were not going to waste anymore American lives in that war if possible and that's the way 99% of Americans felt.

Hell we did more damage in other bombing campaigns in life and property damage.

The only thing the atomic bombs were is psychological warfare mostly.

Psychological for who though? Japan had already lost major cities. The thought of losing a few more didn't really push them to the table. Truman himself had delayed the meeting in Tehran two weeks for the bomb testing just so he can see Stalin's face when he told him of the successful testing. The Soviets knew of the bombs developments but he was supposedly outraged his Intel didn't let him know of the successful testing and Truman caught him off guard.

 

[oldshadow]

Psychological for who though? Japan had already lost major cities. The thought of losing a few more didn't really push them to the table. Truman himself had delayed the meeting in Tehran two weeks for the bomb testing just so he can see Stalin's face when he told him of the successful testing. The Soviets knew of the bombs developments but he was supposedly outraged his Intel didn't let him know of the successful testing and Truman caught him off guard.

To convince Japan that there was no hope other then unconditional surrender.

The whole thing with Russia was a bonus played by the US also.

 

[Makani]

At the very least, it was a neutral action. I think more reasonably it was a horrific misuse of power against a civilian population.

 

[robotsonic]

A significant percentage of "ex"-Nazis were recruited by the CIA under Operation Paperclip. Many of them went on to have successful careers with NASA etc.

None of the Nazis who were involved to a significant degree with the Final Solution were recruited in Operation Paperclip. Von Braun was a member of the Nazi party and the SS but he certainly wasn't involved in what was going in Belsen and Auschwitz, neither were any of the engineers/scientists recruited by the CIA as part of Operation Paperclip. The US would never have recruited Mengele for example, who Ishii was the Japanese equivalent of.

To draw the comparison between the two is just dumb tbh.

 

[Diamond Jim]

To convince Japan that there was no hope other then unconditional surrender.

The whole thing with Russia was a bonus played by the US also.

The Soviets were 30 miles of the Japanese coast with no intent on stopping. Many primary sources from Japan's military leaders called this the reason for surrender. Japan played its cards right by surrending to the Americans knowing they'd be treated better.

Truman made the decision against most of his advisors who knew Japan abandoned a military victory and were just seeking a way to save their emperor. One of my favorites is when Churchill told Truman at a state dinner that he'd better have an answer ready for when he stands before St. Peter and asks so it is you who are responsible for the putting off the atomic bombs. What do you have to say for yourself?

 

[Scrody]

Well, bad things happen to people that genocide races of other people.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

It's interesting to think about what would have happened if the USA maintained the nuclear edge. The USSR got access to atomic technology via espionage.

For a brief period of time, it looked as though the USA had emerged from WW2 as the undisputed master of the world.

 

[Diamond Jim]

It's interesting to think about what would have happened if the USA maintained the nuclear edge. The USSR got access to atomic technology via espionage.

For a brief period of time, it looked as though the USA had emerged from WW2 as the undisputed master of the world.

I forget who said it but someone from that era said it was very foolish for the U.S to think they had the monopoly on technology that didn't originate there.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

I forget who said it but someone from that era said it was very foolish for the U.S to think they had the monopoly on technology that didn't originate there.

You mean because a Brit and an Irishman first split the atom?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, the atom bomb was definitely invented in the USA, with American money, under American supervision...

 

[Diamond Jim]

You mean because a Brit and an Irishman first split the atom?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, the atom bomb was definitely invented in the USA, with American money, under American supervision...

I know the U.S successfully completed the bomb first but it was my understanding that Germany began nuclear weapons programs in 1939. The Soviets in 1945 gathered many of those scientists, notes, material from Germany and Austria after the war to build its program. They were greatly aided by the espionage as you said also.

 

[JosephDredd]

I know the U.S successfully completed the bomb first but it was my understanding that Germany began nuclear weapons programs in 1939. The Soviets in 1945 gathered many of those scientists, notes, material from Germany and Austria after the war to build its program. They were greatly aided by the espionage as you said also.

I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the space race. Germany was working on the first rockets: the US took the personnel, the USSR took the physical technology.

 

[NaziHunta]

~~~GENERAL DOUGLAS MacARTHUR

MacArthur biographer William Manchester has described MacArthur's reaction to the issuance by the Allies of the Potsdam Proclamation to Japan: "...the Potsdam declaration in July, demand[ed] that Japan surrender unconditionally or face 'prompt and utter destruction.' MacArthur was appalled. He knew that the Japanese would never renounce their emperor, and that without him an orderly transition to peace would be impossible anyhow, because his people would never submit to Allied occupation unless he ordered it. Ironically, when the surrender did come, it was conditional, and the condition was a continuation of the imperial reign. Had the General's advice been followed, the resort to atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki might have been unnecessary."

William Manchester, American Caesar: Douglas MacArthur 1880-1964, pg. 512.

 

[Diamond Jim]

I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the space race. Germany was working on the first rockets: the US took the personnel, the USSR took the physical technology.

http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Russian_Alsos

Called the Soviet Alsos. Operation in 45' in which the Soviets exploitated German atomic related faculties, scientific personal and material resources to help their atomic bomb project.

 

[JosephDredd]

http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Russian_Alsos

Called the Soviet Alsos. Operation in 45' in which the Soviets exploitated German atomic related faculties, scientific personal and material resources to help their atomic bomb project.

I stand corrected. Thanks for the info.

 

[NaziHunta]

It's interesting to think about what would have happened if the USA maintained the nuclear edge. The USSR got access to atomic technology via espionage.

For a brief period of time, it looked as though the USA had emerged from WW2 as the undisputed master of the world.

At a May 31, 1945 Interim Committee discussion of the atomic bomb, scientist and Manhattan Project administrator Arthur Compton was present. He recalled, "General Marshall stated that from the point of view of the postwar safety of the nation he would have to argue against the use of the bomb in World War II, at least if its existence could be kept secret. Such use, he said, would show our hand. We would be in a stronger position with regard to future military action if we did not show the power we held." (Arthur Holly Compton, Atomic Quest, pg. 237). Scientists at the meeting then explained that the scientific knowledge was already too widely known to keep the a-bomb a secret. (Microfilm 1108, RG 77, Harrison-Bundy Files, file 100, Notes of the Interim Committee Meeting, Thursday, 31 May 1945, National Archives).

 

[Diamond Jim]

I stand corrected. Thanks for the info.

No problem. UT-Austin is offering a course called the history of the atomic bomb in the fall that I was hoping to take but my schedule and course time didn't work out. Was pretty bummed about it.