49-46 is a defensible score

[Dbreiden83080]

I rewatch the fight on Sunday. So I’ve seen the fight twice at this point in total. Probably will watch it a few more times. I think the fight is basically a draw. Dominic came out super aggressive in the first 15 minutes really trying to put Jones away I think. Looking to land some huge kicks and punches and he deserves a lot of credit for that. Jones it look like to me took different opportunities in the rounds to try and get Dominic to punch and kick himself out. And he pretty much succeeded. Because Jones completely took over in four and five as Dominic was clearly tired. But Jones did give too much ground in the first three.

 

[Dbreiden83080]

This is why you never let it go to the judges.

That’s a nice little catchphrase Dana White always throws out there but obviously at this level of competition it’s not always possible. Jones is the best..

 

[baba2008]

Just because two judges disagreed on round two in no way makes 49-46 defensible - it simply means more than one judge screwed up in scoring the fight. Unless Reyes got dropped in round two, there is no way he should have lost that round. Throwing almost twice as many shots and landing 50% more than your opponent is a winning round - barring something exceptional from your opponent, which there wasn’t in this case. Another judge screwing up round two doesn’t make 49-46 more legitimate - it demonstrates poor judging.

 

[Medulla Omoplata]

It's not "just" anecdotal evidence.

The numbers last I checked here and on another site were about 10 and 20 percent in favor of Jones for rounds two and three.

If you hold those probabilities constant and consider the rounds independent events (as they should be scored), the probability of someone giving Jones both rounds is about two percent (.1*.2).

Then looking at significant strikes per fightmetric, Reyes outlanded Jones in R2 by 11 strikes and R3 by 7 strikes. By comparison, Jones outlanded Reyes in R4 and R5 by 7 and 5 strikes, albeit with some small credit for a small amount of effective grappling. I actually agree that the damage Reyes landed on Jones was somewhat overstated, but there wasn't enough coming back at him to give Jones an advantage.

It just doesn't add up. It's not the biggest robbery ever in terms of who won, but there is enough evidence to call the 4-1 card wrong and incompetent.

I'd like to disregard you're last two paragraphs as I feel that's more aimed at the correctness of the scoring which isn't my focus here. For the record I gave Reyes the first 3.

I'll give you the 10-20 percent, although I'd like to throw a grain of salt in a swimming pool at that, as you're likely aware online polls are a terrible source of data, especially with the emotional investment a lot of fans have. I suspect many people are just judging 'against Jones' rather than impartially.

Regardless you're absolutely correct regarding your probability analysis.

As I said, 4-1 is an outlier, but it remains a valid scoring option in the circumstances.
This thread was aimed solely at people who rail against a 49-46 score but accept either 48-47 score without debate. Perhaps a strawman but I read enough sentiment to that effect that I felt like getting this off my chest.

Thanks for the proper debate bud.

 

[eiyuu]

That’s a nice little catchphrase Dana White always throws out there but obviously at this level of competition it’s not always possible. Jones is the best..

It's still true though if you want to avoid BS like this.

 

[bl0b]

I see a lot of people disagreeing with the 49-46 score, but IMO given the circumstances it is logically defensible. I personally don't agree with that score but that's not the point.

Everyone agrees Jones won 4 and 5. But I've seen a lot of debate regarding rounds 2 and 3. The 2 judges who had it 48-47 disagreed with each other on who took rounds 2 and 3.

Given no clear consensus from the judges or the fans we can conclude rounds 2 and 3 were close rounds and scoring could go either way. If it is both conceivable that someone could give Jones round 2, and conceivable that someone could give Jones round 3, then it is equally conceivable that someone could give Jones both rounds 2 and 3.

The bottom line is that if you disagree with the 49-46 score then logically you must also disagree with one of the 48-47 scores, and since I haven't seen consensus disagreement with either 48-47 then it stands that 49-46, while an outlier, is not inherently unreasonable.

The issue I think is that people want to use the scoring to tell the tale of the fight, and it feels bad that Reyes can put together such a strong performance, and have such a razor thin close fight only to receive a blown out 49-46 score. But the scoring isn't intended to show how close a fight was, it is merely a means to record the winner of each round. 5 very close rounds can still be rightfully scored as 50-45, and 5 rounds with a clear victor can also rightfully be scored as 50-45. The final score does not give tell to the nature of the fight but many fans treat it that way.

More liberal use of 10-10 and 10-8 rounds could help allow scores to more accurately convey the tale of the fight, but that is an entirely different discussion.

I scored it live, while watching, like a lot of us do:

1 - Reyes
2 - Jones
3 - Reyes
4 - Jones
5 - Jones

Then I went to Sherdog and checked the play-by-play, and they had it the EXACT SAME WAY.

So now I know I'm right.

 

[JustBleed69]

I see a lot of people disagreeing with the 49-46 score, but IMO given the circumstances it is logically defensible. I personally don't agree with that score but that's not the point.

Everyone agrees Jones won 4 and 5. But I've seen a lot of debate regarding rounds 2 and 3. The 2 judges who had it 48-47 disagreed with each other on who took rounds 2 and 3.

Given no clear consensus from the judges or the fans we can conclude rounds 2 and 3 were close rounds and scoring could go either way. If it is both conceivable that someone could give Jones round 2, and conceivable that someone could give Jones round 3, then it is equally conceivable that someone could give Jones both rounds 2 and 3.

The bottom line is that if you disagree with the 49-46 score then logically you must also disagree with one of the 48-47 scores, and since I haven't seen consensus disagreement with either 48-47 then it stands that 49-46, while an outlier, is not inherently unreasonable.

The issue I think is that people want to use the scoring to tell the tale of the fight, and it feels bad that Reyes can put together such a strong performance, and have such a razor thin close fight only to receive a blown out 49-46 score. But the scoring isn't intended to show how close a fight was, it is merely a means to record the winner of each round. 5 very close rounds can still be rightfully scored as 50-45, and 5 rounds with a clear victor can also rightfully be scored as 50-45. The final score does not give tell to the nature of the fight but many fans treat it that way.

More liberal use of 10-10 and 10-8 rounds could help allow scores to more accurately convey the tale of the fight, but that is an entirely different discussion.

49-46 Reyes is more defensible than 48-47 Jones.

 

[DS7]

It's a defensible score for Reyes.

Someone has to be clinically retarded to give any of the championship rounds to Reyes, so no.

 

[Medulla Omoplata]

Just because two judges disagreed on round two in no way makes 49-46 defensible - it simply means more than one judge screwed up in scoring the fight. Unless Reyes got dropped in round two, there is no way he should have lost that round. Throwing almost twice as many shots and landing 50% more than your opponent is a winning round - barring something exceptional from your opponent, which there wasn’t in this case. Another judge screwing up round two doesn’t make 49-46 more legitimate - it demonstrates poor judging.

That's a fair take, although as I did state a couple times in this thread I felt that I saw enough debate among the fans. That, coupled with the judges scoring makes the rounds debatable.
I don't get it myself, but other's feel differently.

 

[GordonMMARamsey]

If people are upset with the 49-46 for Jones, they can go ahead and dismiss it. Even score it a 45-50 for Reyes if they'd like.

 

[wilKO]

Someone has to be clinically retarded to give any of the championship rounds to Reyes, so no.

It was a joke.

 

[Medulla Omoplata]

It was a joke.

no joking on the internet bud

 

[DS7]

It was a joke.

 

[CasualBot]

Just rewatched it, Reyes missed dozens of punches.
It was either a draw, or Jones won.

I hate jones, but Dom didn't win. Jones pulled a diaz, finished stronger. Dom didn't get the knock out, didn't push forward in second half of rounds, didn't attack any grappling, but did land a few heavy shots, and scrambled to his feet well. That was survival not winning.

Jones was also in survival mode a few times but managed to dodge dozens of punches in the process.
Literally dozens of airballs by Dom that (I'm convinced) people "think" landed.
They didn't.

More important than a single scramble.

Jones recovered and attacked, had much better low kicks, more accurate punches, equal body shots, got takedown on shitty wrestling, and didn't look like a GOAT.

Draw, or Jones,
but Reyes didn't win.

I hate Jones,
and decisions are not wins.

This was a draw in my eyes,
Dom needed a finish

 

[Do better]

I see a lot of people disagreeing with the 49-46 score, but IMO given the circumstances it is logically defensible. I personally don't agree with that score but that's not the point.

Everyone agrees Jones won 4 and 5. But I've seen a lot of debate regarding rounds 2 and 3. The 2 judges who had it 48-47 disagreed with each other on who took rounds 2 and 3.

Given no clear consensus from the judges or the fans we can conclude rounds 2 and 3 were close rounds and scoring could go either way. If it is both conceivable that someone could give Jones round 2, and conceivable that someone could give Jones round 3, then it is equally conceivable that someone could give Jones both rounds 2 and 3.

The bottom line is that if you disagree with the 49-46 score then logically you must also disagree with one of the 48-47 scores, and since I haven't seen consensus disagreement with either 48-47 then it stands that 49-46, while an outlier, is not inherently unreasonable.

The issue I think is that people want to use the scoring to tell the tale of the fight, and it feels bad that Reyes can put together such a strong performance, and have such a razor thin close fight only to receive a blown out 49-46 score. But the scoring isn't intended to show how close a fight was, it is merely a means to record the winner of each round. 5 very close rounds can still be rightfully scored as 50-45, and 5 rounds with a clear victor can also rightfully be scored as 50-45. The final score does not give tell to the nature of the fight but many fans treat it that way.

More liberal use of 10-10 and 10-8 rounds could help allow scores to more accurately convey the tale of the fight, but that is an entirely different discussion.

Thank you for making sense! All the complaining about the 49-46 score is ridiculous. If the right guy won then who cares, the could score it 50-3 for all I care as it makes no difference

 

[grimballer]

Yup ppl don’t think this through

If you criticize that one judge that gave jones rounds 2 n 3, then you also have to criticize the other 2 judges for giving rounds 2 n 3 to jones.

it was a close fight, but also illustrates why 10-9 is not a good system for scoring mma.

jones obviously won the fight as a whole, however you can make an argument that Reyes won 3 even 4 rounds.

That’s why some fighters (like Lawler) use that 1-3-5 strategy taking a break during even rounds.

you gotta get off strong start n win the 1st round

then the 2nd round will go to the opponent, unless it’s clear dominant round, so you better off preserving some energy there.

round 3 you again put pressure n try to win that one

round 4 you take a break again unless you feel your opponent gotta better of you n most likely won that round

the most likely scenario is that 5th round will be a deciding round n you wanna make sure to come out strong in that one n win it.

reyes showed his lack of experience by going hard 1st 3 rounds n then slowing down in championship rounds

 

[mudrubble]

Please try and convince me how Jones won round 2?

I watched it again and scored round 2 minute by minute, with the volume off, and with a friend, who admittedly knows little about MMA but does love watching and was very interested in the fight.

• I felt in min 1 of the 2nd round Reyes pushed forward aggressively and landed some good blows - was the most most decisive minute of the round. No real damage was inflicted but he dominated the first minute
• 2nd minute Jon backed him up with leg kicks and controlled the action
• 3rd minute Jon backed him up with constant pressure and landed the best shot of that minute - no real damage was inflicted but he landed the best shot
• 4th minute Jon marginally led on strikes and kept backing Reyes up
• 5th minute Reyes marginally led on strikes while Jon continued backing him up with pressure

To me, a round like this can be judged either way. No damage was inflicted that round to speak of. Jones mostly controlled it and Dominic had his best moment in the 1st minute and spent most of the rest of the round backing up.

To say that scoring this round for Jones is a robbery is ridiculous to me. I had it for Jones, personally. My friend originally had it for Reyes but after watching it with the sound off (one time all the way through and a second time watching ONLY round 2) - my friend agreed that Jones probably took round 2.

You don't have to agree but my point is that it's not a robbery or even anything dodgy to say Jones won that round. The best Dominic could say was that he had a dynamic first minute so he won. It could have gone either way.

 

[Dbreiden83080]

It's still true though if you want to avoid BS like this.

It’s not bullshit. It’s close decision. Happens all the time.

 

[Robotnickx]

Lol, that's so completely different and not at all related to what I said. Try again and do better or take your insults elsewhere nicky.

So we're discussing judging and a judge not watching fights is unrelated?

This level of stupid means you are around a 70 IQ, clinically retarded. That's you. Which means I have more than twice your IQ. Sherdog sucks.

 

[vladimirvlad]

48-47 Reyes end of story. Jones won 4 and 5, Dom won 1,2, and 3.