Most BJJ Fighters Can't Wrestle Because They Aren't Humble Like Maia, Says Askren

[ReadWrite]

“Jiu Jitsu guys have no takedowns,” he said. “And we saw it with Kron Gracie. Kron Gracie is legit a very high-level grappler. This man won the ADCC’s. I can’t remember what year right now, but he won the ADCC’s, and yet he looked clueless. He looked absolutely freaking clueless on how to get a takedown last Saturday night! It was ridiculous! It’s not like Cub Swanson was a high-level division-one wrestler!

“And so one of the things that I actually appreciate and like about Demian, is that he’s a Jiu Jitsu guy who kind of put his ego away and said, 'Okay, well, I am a Jiu Jitsu guy, but I’m gonna learn how to wrestle so I can take people down and then do my Jiu Jitsu from there.' And I like that. And I don’t think enough Jiu Jitsu people do that. And I think if more people followed Demian’s lead they would be better off.”

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2019/10/18/20920240/ufc-singapore-ben-askren-on-demian-maia-fight-jiu-jitsu-guys-have-no-takedowns-mma-news

 

[VinceArch]

Yeah, he isn't wrong.

 

[Prince Nephilim]

I think it depends on the martial artist.

As an example, Maia landed a beautiful takedown on Chael and even defended Chael's takedowns. Overall wrestling is more geared toward the TD's but what wrestling lacks is the SHEER versatility of finishing the fight once it hits the ground.

 

[BRASIL WAND]

That’s not necessarily true. There’s different schools and styles of BJJ and there’s a huge ignorant misconception here on the forum that it’s all one big old school guard based nonsense.

Most dudes here don’t train or are just in such McDojos with watered down belts that they wouldn’t recognize the difference:

For example you have the Carlson Gracie lineage which is Takedown/Top Game heavy like Arona, Filho, Penn, Aldo, etc. VERY suited for MMA.

Cesar Gracie has very aggressive submission driven fighters.

then you have other lineages more suited for BJJ tourneys which is a lot the guard flopping spam you get in the UFC.

 

[Fahcough]

Not true. Depends why you take BJJ. Not many reasons
1. You can't fight and it's the easiest one to learn with least risk and you're not athletic
2. You wrestle and already like to lay on the ground and put guys parts between your own.
3. You've mastered all the hard styles and need to know the defense to not have a man hugger dragging you to his love nest.

 

[BJpencil]

That’s not necessarily true. There’s different schools and styles of BJJ and there’s a huge ignorant misconception here on the forum that it’s all one big old school guard based nonsense.

For example you have the Carlson Gracie lineage with is Takedown/Top Game heavy like Arona, Filho, Penn, Aldo, etc. VERY suited for MMA.

Cesar Gracie has very aggressive submission driven fighters.

then you have other lineages more suited for BJJ tourneys which is a lot the guard flopping spam you get in the UFC.

With Penn and ot

“Jiu Jitsu guys have no takedowns,” he said. “And we saw it with Kron Gracie. Kron Gracie is legit a very high-level grappler. This man won the ADCC’s. I can’t remember what year right now, but he won the ADCC’s, and yet he looked clueless. He looked absolutely freaking clueless on how to get a takedown last Saturday night! It was ridiculous! It’s not like Cub Swanson was a high-level division-one wrestler!

“And so one of the things that I actually appreciate and like about Demian, is that he’s a Jiu Jitsu guy who kind of put his ego away and said, 'Okay, well, I am a Jiu Jitsu guy, but I’m gonna learn how to wrestle so I can take people down and then do my Jiu Jitsu from there.' And I like that. And I don’t think enough Jiu Jitsu people do that. And I think if more people followed Demian’s lead they would be better off.”

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2019/10/18/20920240/ufc-singapore-ben-askren-on-demian-maia-fight-jiu-jitsu-guys-have-no-takedowns-mma-news

It's not only that but guys like Gurgel and Penn abandoned and didn't use their primary art as their careers matured. Maia stuck to his and added wrestling. I would've liked BJ to use his boxing, but also mix it up with wrestling to get the fight to the ground and use his BJJ. BJ fell in love with his hands and forgot about his BJJ. Wrestling and/or Judo should be a must for BJJ guys in the UFC.

 

[ReadWrite]

I think Ben has a valid point, but people have been saying the same kind of thing about him not learning to box. And added that he is content not to learn how to become a skilled striker, relying on his wrestling.

 

[mkt]

then you have other lineages more suited for BJJ tourneys which is a lot the guard flopping spam you get in the UFC.

I Kron't imagine.... I mean I can't imagine who you're talking about.

 

[mkt]

. Wrestling and/or Judo should be a must for BJJ guys in the UFC.

Even with judo you still need wrestling. Okami realized this and trained with Chael after he lost to him. Aoki has a judo black belt, and he can take down lesser fighters in One, but he was absolutely ragdolled by Gilbert Melendez and KO'd stiff by Eddie Alvarez in their rematch (I don't remember if he tried taking Eddie down, but don't think he'd have success if he did). He would've run into the same problems with many other guys if he came to the UFC.

 

[RVCA]

That’s not necessarily true. There’s different schools and styles of BJJ and there’s a huge ignorant misconception here on the forum that it’s all one big old school guard based nonsense.

Most dudes here don’t train or are just in such McDojos with watered down belts that they wouldn’t recognize the difference:

For example you have the Carlson Gracie lineage which is Takedown/Top Game heavy like Arona, Filho, Penn, Aldo, etc. VERY suited for MMA.

Cesar Gracie has very aggressive submission driven fighters.

then you have other lineages more suited for BJJ tourneys which is a lot the guard flopping spam you get in the UFC.

Aldo never uses his BJJ lol

He only shoots for desperation takedowns when he is hurt or gassed, i.e. Hominick and Holloway fights

 

[beastman]

Cub Swanson is a blackbelt who has been grappling for 15 years. Not like he doesn't have the ability to stop a takedown.

Agree that Maia has good wrestling for a BJJ centric fighter. Not sure if it has anything to do with him being humble, maybe more with being realistic..

 

[TerrorTimmy]

Yeah, he isn't wrong.

He's not wrong, but he's also guilty of the same thing. He can't throw a punch because he isn't humble. How many years in MMA and he literally can't throw a proper strike of any kind? Isn't that the same problem BJJ guys make by not learning wrestling and striking? Maia is the one guy who's learned to adapt his game to MMA. He's still a specialist, but he's a rounded specialist now

 

[Deleted member 551049]

That's not true at all.

Wrestlers have access to the best BJJ training in the world, the way everyone else does. The reverse is not true for BJJ guys. It is very difficult to get good at wrestling, unless you did it in school. Access to it just doesn't exist at the same level, the way it does for BJJ. It's not as simple as just putting your ego away. The wrestling practices done in an MMA gym or even going to a wrestling club still won't provide anywhere near the level of training that someone like Askren can easily find for BJJ.

 

[TheJohnnyWalkerEra]

Ben is right, especially with Gracies, that's why they're garbage in modern MMA

Kron looked like a complete can in that fight

 

[blaseblah]

Cub's submission defense is suspect but he has gotten much better at keeping the fight on the feet over the years. Edgar couldn't land a single takedown last time they fought.

 

[BRASIL WAND]

Aldo never uses his BJJ lol

He only shoots for desperation takedowns when he is hurt or gassed, i.e. Hominick and Holloway fights

You haven’t seen Prime Aldo buddeh. He has phenomenal BJJ.

1. He was in cruise mode against Hominick (Hominick literally had like 30 seconds of offense in a 25 minute fight) and the Holloway fights came against a decrepit, two round cardio Aldo.

2. Watch the early fights in his career where he used grappling a lot more. Even during his prime with Mike Brown, Korean Zombie, Mendes, etc. the way he passes guard with authority is something beautiful. Once Aldo took top position, they couldn’t peel him off.

You need to do some homework.

 

[DrunkMonkMeth]

I think it depends on the martial artist.

As an example, Maia landed a beautiful takedown on Chael and even defended Chael's takedowns. Overall wrestling is more geared toward the TD's but where wrestling lacks is the SHEER versatility of finishing the fight once it hits the ground.

Its almost like if you combine the 2 you have a superior martial artist

 

[ColombianFist]

Agreed.

After the Silva fiasco he had to.

 

[Ether13]

Maybe Ben Askren can humble himself and learn some BJJ so he can actually do something after he gets the takedown

 

[ShreddinMMA]

That’s not necessarily true. There’s different schools and styles of BJJ and there’s a huge ignorant misconception here on the forum that it’s all one big old school guard based nonsense.

Most dudes here don’t train or are just in such McDojos with watered down belts that they wouldn’t recognize the difference:

For example you have the Carlson Gracie lineage which is Takedown/Top Game heavy like Arona, Filho, Penn, Aldo, etc. VERY suited for MMA.

Cesar Gracie has very aggressive submission driven fighters.

then you have other lineages more suited for BJJ tourneys which is a lot the guard flopping spam you get in the UFC.

Right but he's talking across the board for straight BJJ training.

Outside of a select few gyms/lineages that have built out their wrestling programs, large chunks of BJJ across the United States and Brazil lack serious takedown training. This is one of the biggest problems with BJJ competitors across the board and is a consistent problem in nearly every gym I've been to.

Askren is pretty spot on here. There are exceptions like you mentioned, but by no means is this the majority. One of my buddies is a top BJJ competitor along the West Coast and he consistently calls out how weak wrestling is overall in the community (he comes from a collegiate background).