Economy 4 Questions for people who want Socialism or Communism in the U.S.

[Diogenes of Sinope]

Gen Z and Millennials increasingly are calling for "democratic socialism" and even Communism in the US.
I have heard the same copy-and-paste arguments over and over, so I'd like to lay them all out to see the answers that the armchair economists may have

1) In states that have more social programs like California, we see residents with the highest taxes moving to other states. Why wouldn't the same thing happen, where minds and businesses leave the country. if we had Socialism/communism at the national level?

2) When the argument is made that socialist countries like Venezuela, CCP, and Soviet Russia, have problems where food is scarce and the grocery stores are bare, I hear the counter argument: You're confusing a dictatorship with communism/socialism.

Couldn't I make the same argument for your criticism of Capitalism?

3) I often hear that Real Communism or Democratic Socialism hasn't been tried yet. Why would we test that out now, when it has had such a high failure rate?" Also why do you ignore the "absolute power corrupts absolutely" philosophical model that is the core problem that U.S. democracy attempt to solve in the first place. Why would giving more power to the government be beneficial, when they are susceptible to the same human impulses?

4) the majority of the richest people and wealthiest companies exist in the US. I think its pretty bipartisan to agree that Corporation and politicians are in cahoots, Why would any politician implement full-blown socialism when they have partnerships with multi-billion dollar corporations? Also do you think voting in an "outsider" who would change this would really work? especially considering the fact these multi-billion dollar corporations, many of them being social media platforms, control the vast amount of information to the public and have more election influence than the politicians themselves?

 

[Kandyland]

C'mon broseph, we all know that communism hasn't been done right. It just needs a chance to succeed. If not, then you hate poor people

-War Room leftists

 

[Sano]

1. Democratic socialism is used interchangably with social democracy. It isn't socialism.

2. Outside of a tiny fringe, no one wants communism.

 

[Diogenes of Sinope]

1. Democratic socialism is used interchangably with social democracy. It isn't socialism.

2. Outside of a tiny fringe, no one wants communism.

Can you please define the key differences between the two? Also, what's your favorite Democratic socialist country?

I also personally know many who want Communism. "Democratic socialism" encouragers started out as a fringe group as well

 

[Zazen]

Communism is incredibly unpopular and its used as a way to discredit political opponents by the right. Most people who want change want to see corporate interest to take a backseat to the priorities of the average American worker. That means universal healthcare, paid family leave, ubi, etc. I'm still very a capitalist although I think we need more regulation. The ones who actually call themselves commies I don't agree with

 

[Diogenes of Sinope]

Communism is incredibly unpopular and its used as a way to discredit political opponents by the right. Most people who want change want to see corporate interest to take a backseat to the priorities of the average American worker. That means universal healthcare, paid family leave, ubi, etc. I'm still very a capitalist although I think we need more regulation. The ones who actually call themselves commies I don't agree with

Ive always stood by Capitalism with regulation is the best model. The beast is necessary, but needs to be checked and tamed. Although IDK about the realism of UBI; need to see more information on how that would effect inflation. I am for socialized healthcare, as long as there are options for private as well

 

[Sano]

Can you please define the key differences between the two? Also, what's your favorite Democratic socialist country?

I also personally know many who want Communism. "Democratic socialism" encouragers started out as a fringe group as well

Terms have been completely hijacked and are misunderstood on both sides.

I'm no expert on politcal theories, but as far as I understand it, socialism is largely the theory of the means of production being owned by the workforce. Some socialists believe in state controlled power, others in a decentralized and community based power structure. It seeks to remove capitalism and replace it.

Most first world countries have elements of both socialism and capitalism. Social democracy and democratic socialism isn't necessarily the same thing, with democratic socialism being closer to socialism, but the terms have been used interchangably for a while now.

Social democracy usually refers to the Nordic/Scandinavian model, but it applies to most Northern and Western European countries. Basically it's a political and economic theory which prioritizes egalitarian policies such as equal access to healthcare, civil rights and education, as well as strong safety nets. It runs on a market economy but has strong government regulation and oversight. Anti-authoritarian, egalitarian, market driven, individual freedom, economic and social protection. In my opinion, it's the best combination of socialism and capitalism out there.

 

[Diogenes of Sinope]

Terms have been completely hijacked and are misunderstood on both sides.

I'm no expert on politcal theories, but as far as I understand it, socialism is largely the theory of the means of production being owned by the workforce. Some socialists believe in state controlled power, others in a decentralized and community based power structure. It seeks to remove capitalism and replace it.

Most first world countries have elements of both socialism and capitalism. Social democracy and democratic socialism isn't necessarily the same thing, with democratic socialism being closer to socialism, but the terms have been used interchangably during for a long time now.

Social democracy usually refers to the Nordic/Scandinavian model, but it applies to most Northern and Western European countries. Basically it's a political and economic theory which prioritizes egalitarian policies such as equal access to healthcare, civil rights and education, as well as strong safety nets. It runs on a market and capitalistic economy but has strong government regulation and oversight. In my opinion, it's the best combination of socialism and capitalism there is out there.

So its basically Capitalism with regulation, just leaning more towards the regulation end of the spectrum.

What would stop the rich who fund these social programs via taxes from just moving?

 

[Scheme]

The US is already socialist in many ways, more so than a lot of other countries.

 

[Diogenes of Sinope]

The US is already socialist in many ways, more so than a lot of other countries.

It's capitalist with regulation and social programs. That doesn't render it a socialist nation

 

[Sano]

So its basically Capitalism with regulation, just leaning more towards the regulation end of the spectrum

Hmm, that's closer to the truth. But I'd say that it's a mixture between socialism and capitalism more so. I obviously don't speak for everyone (we have very different opinions about politics here as well), but generally we want government to run energy, the postal service, healthcare, police, EMT's, infrastructure, education and more because it removes the profit-margin. And the people employed are us. At the same time, we don't want to remove private ownership and we believe that privately run alternatives can sometimes provide a better service, as well as improve competition. We have very strong labor unions and labor rights, but workers do not own the means of production.

In many ways, Bernie Sanders is close to the Nordic model. Remove the identity politics and move him a little closer to the center on a few issues, and it would be pretty similar to our system. America has to be over-extravagant though. We have something called "Janteloven" here, which I think has served us well. Other than being a small nation in a nothern climate.

 

[fedoriswar37]

Socialism can have its place in a capitalist society. With that said, the government is terrible at what they do. I'd prefer them not have absolute power over everything

 

[JDragon]

So its basically Capitalism with regulation, just leaning more towards the regulation end of the spectrum.

What would stop the rich who fund these social programs via taxes from just moving?

You don't just 'tax the rich', but have a progressive tax system.

If the super rich want to move to some tax haven, sure, nothing gonna stop them. But the system relies far less on their taxes and the threshold for the 'average wealthy person' to move abroad is also (empirically) higher than you might think.

 

[Sano]

Socialism can have its place in a capitalist society. With that said, the government is terrible at what they do. I'd prefer them not have absolute power over everything

Wouldn't it be more correct to say that socialism have an inevitable place in society? Free market capitalism is basically feudalism.

I don't think many people would like for the government to have absolute power over everything. That would be authoritarian communism, in my view.

 

[Diogenes of Sinope]

You don't just 'tax the rich', but have a progressive tax system.

If the super rich want to move to some tax haven, sure, nothing gonna stop them. But the system relies far less on their taxes and the threshold for the 'average wealthy person' to move abroad is also (empirically) higher than you might think.

Im just looking at California and how many "average wealthy people" are moving from here. Property and state income tax is too high for them, Many of them moving to Texas.

California seems to be a sneak peak of what Democratic socialism would look like at the national level

 

[jk7707]

I also personally know many who want Communism. "Democratic socialism" encouragers started out as a fringe group as well

What? Who the hell do you hang out with?

 

[Diogenes of Sinope]

What? Who the hell do you hang out with?

Its more common than you think. I imagine I'm a bit younger than you though, so I see it more amongst my age bracket

 

[Losfer Words]

A specter is haunting the war room...again.

 

[Sano]

Its more common than you think. I imagine im a bit younger than you though, so I see it more amongst my age bracket

They probably don't have a clue what communism is. I mean, it's no wonder considering that Obama was called a communist and/or socialist.

 

[Papi Chulo]

The USA became great for a reason. Commies/Democrats want to abandon our roots and the Constitution