- Joined
- Mar 2, 2018
- Messages
- 15,170
- Reaction score
- 1,741
Warning: TLDR here.
Today:[JMMA Scene]
MYTH: Pride´s 2000 OW Grand Prix was rigged
> Mezger got 'robbed'.
Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
The SAKU vs Mezger case was too complex to be confined to the 25th Decons...
Im not sayin´SAKU desserved the win (I could twist a narrative here...).
Im jus´sayin´ that it was not an easy fight to score, especially with Pride´s complex Scoring System.
I felt the draw was a realistic outcome, but I have no probz with anyone scorin´it for Mezger.
The problem is about the narrative tryin´to be more 'mezgerist' than Mezger...
Those who call this fight a hobbery, would probably call Mezger vs Shoji a hobbery too, for instance...
Context: Pride´s 2000 OW Grand Prix.
> SAKU was supposed to face Randleman, but he got injured, and Mezger stepped in.
> Pride had the [very bad] idea to announce a potential [future] match-up between SAKU & Hoyce (a legit Super-fight...) during this tournament.
> Guy (and Ken) claimed he signed the contract for a One Round fight (max. 15mns).
Openweight Kazushi Sakuraba def. Guy Mezger: [Retirement]
I- Scoring the fight according to Pride´s complex Scoring System:
The criteria were:
1. Effort to finish the fight by KO or submission
2. Damage
3. Standing combinations and ground control
4. Takedowns and defense
5. Aggressiveness
6. Weight differences (15 Kg or more @ HW) (10 Kg @ MW)
7/ Negative Points – Yellow Cards
These criteria are in order of priority or importance.
They are considered in descending order if a fight goes to a decision.
1. Effort to finish by KO or submission:
Note: imo, both Bas & Quadros were slightly biased towards Mezger, especially when it comes to the kicks (they would say that Mezger´s kicks landed flush, while SAKU´s were blocked...).
I suggest y´all to rewatch the fight without audio.
- Striking:
No KD here.
SAKU scored with:
> 3 good body kicks [liver shot]: imo the best qualitative strikes of the fight.
> 1 pretty good head kick, & 2 decent ones
> 3 decent leg kicks
> 1 decent spinnin´ back kick
> 1 decent knee
> 2 decent body punches, 2 left jabs, 1 good uppercut to the body.
Note: most SAKU´s leg kicks were checked.
Mezger scored with:
> 5 decent leg kicks, but no real damage (for a LHW)
> 5 decent side kicks
> 1 decent roundhouse kick [but end of the foot]
> 1 good left kick, 1 decent high kick
> 3 good right hands, 1 decent one, 1 decent punch to the body, 1 decent left hook
> some elbows to body
> 1 decent knee to body
Note: most Guy´s leg kicks weren´t checked.
> Nod: Per volume, Guy might get the nod here, but SAKU´s kicks seemed more powerful...
It´s basically Quantity vs Quality ...
- Submission Attempts:
Nothing really threatening here.
SAKU attempted a rollin´armbar and a kimura, but failed.
Guy, nothing.
> Nod: SAKU, here.
Overall: Tough to score...Guy might get the nod here...
2. Damage:
SAKU did more damage with his body kicks (liver shot) and high kicks.
While Guy did more damage with his jabs.
Damage from Submission Attempts > None here.
> Nod: pretty even here (tough to assess damage done [by a MW to a LHW] by the liver shots )
3. Standing combinations and ground control:
- Standing combinations:
Guy had more combos here, especially with his hands.
They both had their way with their kicks.
Each showcased a large arsenal of strikes.
> Nod: Mezger
- Ground control:
Guy got SAKU´s back once, during 4 sec. He also secured a front lock, but was quickly reversed
SAKU got Guy´s back twice, during 25 sec and then 7 sec.
SAKU was also on top of Guy once, during 5 sec. (attempted a weak rollin´armbar, and lost the position)
Moreover, between the 8th mn and the end of the fight, all Guy did was defend SAKU´s single leg, while inflictin´almost none legit damage, except a few elbows to SAKU´s back.
> Nod: SAKU.
Overall: Even.
4. Takedown and defense:
As noted above, SAKU got 1 legit TD, while his other single leg TDs were well defended by Guy.
> Nod: SAKU here, but Guy´s TDD was almost perfect.
5. Aggressiveness:
I would give the nod to here, he pressed the action a lil bit more.
They both scored on the feet, but he was also the one seeking dominant position on the ground, got Guy´s back several times, even though he had no legit submission attempt.
Guy was purely defensive on the ground.
Moreover, SAKU finished stronger, pressin´the action.
> Nod: SAKU.
6. Weight Difference:
> If a fighter is more than 15 Kilos lighter at heavyweight or 10 Kilos at middleweight, then he will be
given an advantage here. This is only taken into consideration when the higher criteria are even.
Indeed, this is the controversial part here, and the fighters´weight was not anounced this time.
Since it was a short notice fight [2 weeks], Guy realistically must have come in heavier and [could have]
had some 25 lbs over SAKU (Mezger claimed he was 199 lbs though, hard to assess...claimed he had flu b4 the fight, and that he was recovering from a kidney problem...while SAKU was @ 183 lbs vs Hoyler, 2 months b4...183 lbs bein´his 'historical' weight):
Mezger: "That's what they said. That's how they justified it. The problem is, there wasn't a 10 kilo weight difference.
I was 199 pounds. I got the flu from Ken's kids in training. I took four bags of fluids with me because I was so sick and dehydrated."
The fight b4, vs Shoji, Guy came in @ 200 lbs [no flu, no short notice, no 'official' injury, even though he
seemed to have a problem since he didnt use his right kick...]
He then fought 1 month later against Brad Jones, @ Pure Action 2 [USA]. > I have no info on his weight.
[Note: this fight seems to dismiss the possibility of a foot injury in the SAKU fight...]
The next fight was against Masaaki Satake, 2 months later > Normal preparation, Weight = 203 lbs.
Now, the infamous 10 Kg criteria = 22 lbs.
The difference between Guy´s claim and SAKU´s weight = 16 lbs.
I´ve always considered Mezger a no-nonsense fighter, pretty reliable.
I see no reason to doubt him, but it´s indeed hard to believe that he came in @ his usual 200 lbs weight,
with such a chaotic preparation and on short notice.
And the whole controversy is pretty much about those 6 lbs...
As Quadros said:
"They still had that 10kg handicapping [mentality].
Let's say a fighter was 10 kilos or more lighter than another fighter.
He already had a point in the round, so you basically had to beat him more than someone your own size."
7/ Negative Points – Yellow Cards:
> NONE here.
II- Aftermath:
Note: Matt Hume was one of the Judges (he knew the Lion´s Den crew since the Pancrase days...).
He claimed that "We knew nothing about that. I don't doubt Ken had an agreement with them. What he claimed he was told was that it would be one round"
This is what Guy said after the fight:[21 July 2001]
Reporter : Has Pride ever approached you about doing a work?
Guy Mezger : "No, pride had never asked me to work a match."
Reporter : You fought Sakuraba in the Pride Grand Prix, opening round. The fight was only scheduled to be
1, 15 minute round. Yet at the end of the first round Pride attempted to add another round, do you believe
they tried to rob you?
Guy Mezger : "Rob me, no."
To prove that Im keepin´ it real, gonna add the rest of the interview:
"Shitting themselves because they were expecting me to lose and when I did not, it was going to screw up
the Hoyce/Sak match, which is a bigger sell in Japan. I think the match maker and high ups were not on the
same page."
> He naturally defended his win, but confirmed that he felt there was no hobbery.
Later, he added:
Mezger: "Mainly, I felt like they were just disorganized.
I didn't know I was going to fight Masaaki Satake until 18 days before the fight. Their take was, "If you're a real warrior, you'll do it." I go, "Really? OK. All right." "
CONCLUSION: Consequently, what happened?
Mismanagement:
> Pride was still a rookie Org., this [OW] GP was their 1st, and they had to deal with several agendas
[see the SAKU vs Hoyce fight configuration later, with no time limit...during a one night tournament (!?) ]...
> Mezger took this fight on short notice, while he was sick [flu], and had [maybe] an injured foot (Mezger
confirmed the flu [got it from Ken´s kids], and that he was recovering from a kidney problem but not the injury, in his post-fight interviews).
He realistically shouldnt have taken it (was offered 6 figures though..).
Even SAKU wasnt interested in this fight, claimin´that Mezger´s style was "boring"...
Today:[JMMA Scene]
MYTH: Pride´s 2000 OW Grand Prix was rigged
> Mezger got 'robbed'.
Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
The SAKU vs Mezger case was too complex to be confined to the 25th Decons...
Im not sayin´SAKU desserved the win (I could twist a narrative here...).
Im jus´sayin´ that it was not an easy fight to score, especially with Pride´s complex Scoring System.
I felt the draw was a realistic outcome, but I have no probz with anyone scorin´it for Mezger.
The problem is about the narrative tryin´to be more 'mezgerist' than Mezger...
Those who call this fight a hobbery, would probably call Mezger vs Shoji a hobbery too, for instance...
Context: Pride´s 2000 OW Grand Prix.
> SAKU was supposed to face Randleman, but he got injured, and Mezger stepped in.
> Pride had the [very bad] idea to announce a potential [future] match-up between SAKU & Hoyce (a legit Super-fight...) during this tournament.
> Guy (and Ken) claimed he signed the contract for a One Round fight (max. 15mns).
Openweight Kazushi Sakuraba def. Guy Mezger: [Retirement]
I- Scoring the fight according to Pride´s complex Scoring System:
The criteria were:
1. Effort to finish the fight by KO or submission
2. Damage
3. Standing combinations and ground control
4. Takedowns and defense
5. Aggressiveness
6. Weight differences (15 Kg or more @ HW) (10 Kg @ MW)
7/ Negative Points – Yellow Cards
These criteria are in order of priority or importance.
They are considered in descending order if a fight goes to a decision.
1. Effort to finish by KO or submission:
Note: imo, both Bas & Quadros were slightly biased towards Mezger, especially when it comes to the kicks (they would say that Mezger´s kicks landed flush, while SAKU´s were blocked...).
I suggest y´all to rewatch the fight without audio.
- Striking:
No KD here.
SAKU scored with:
> 3 good body kicks [liver shot]: imo the best qualitative strikes of the fight.
> 1 pretty good head kick, & 2 decent ones
> 3 decent leg kicks
> 1 decent spinnin´ back kick
> 1 decent knee
> 2 decent body punches, 2 left jabs, 1 good uppercut to the body.
Note: most SAKU´s leg kicks were checked.
Mezger scored with:
> 5 decent leg kicks, but no real damage (for a LHW)
> 5 decent side kicks
> 1 decent roundhouse kick [but end of the foot]
> 1 good left kick, 1 decent high kick
> 3 good right hands, 1 decent one, 1 decent punch to the body, 1 decent left hook
> some elbows to body
> 1 decent knee to body
Note: most Guy´s leg kicks weren´t checked.
> Nod: Per volume, Guy might get the nod here, but SAKU´s kicks seemed more powerful...
It´s basically Quantity vs Quality ...
- Submission Attempts:
Nothing really threatening here.
SAKU attempted a rollin´armbar and a kimura, but failed.
Guy, nothing.
> Nod: SAKU, here.
Overall: Tough to score...Guy might get the nod here...
2. Damage:
SAKU did more damage with his body kicks (liver shot) and high kicks.
While Guy did more damage with his jabs.
Damage from Submission Attempts > None here.
> Nod: pretty even here (tough to assess damage done [by a MW to a LHW] by the liver shots )
3. Standing combinations and ground control:
- Standing combinations:
Guy had more combos here, especially with his hands.
They both had their way with their kicks.
Each showcased a large arsenal of strikes.
> Nod: Mezger
- Ground control:
Guy got SAKU´s back once, during 4 sec. He also secured a front lock, but was quickly reversed
SAKU got Guy´s back twice, during 25 sec and then 7 sec.
SAKU was also on top of Guy once, during 5 sec. (attempted a weak rollin´armbar, and lost the position)
Moreover, between the 8th mn and the end of the fight, all Guy did was defend SAKU´s single leg, while inflictin´almost none legit damage, except a few elbows to SAKU´s back.
> Nod: SAKU.
Overall: Even.
4. Takedown and defense:
As noted above, SAKU got 1 legit TD, while his other single leg TDs were well defended by Guy.
> Nod: SAKU here, but Guy´s TDD was almost perfect.
5. Aggressiveness:
I would give the nod to here, he pressed the action a lil bit more.
They both scored on the feet, but he was also the one seeking dominant position on the ground, got Guy´s back several times, even though he had no legit submission attempt.
Guy was purely defensive on the ground.
Moreover, SAKU finished stronger, pressin´the action.
> Nod: SAKU.
6. Weight Difference:
> If a fighter is more than 15 Kilos lighter at heavyweight or 10 Kilos at middleweight, then he will be
given an advantage here. This is only taken into consideration when the higher criteria are even.
Indeed, this is the controversial part here, and the fighters´weight was not anounced this time.
Since it was a short notice fight [2 weeks], Guy realistically must have come in heavier and [could have]
had some 25 lbs over SAKU (Mezger claimed he was 199 lbs though, hard to assess...claimed he had flu b4 the fight, and that he was recovering from a kidney problem...while SAKU was @ 183 lbs vs Hoyler, 2 months b4...183 lbs bein´his 'historical' weight):
Mezger: "That's what they said. That's how they justified it. The problem is, there wasn't a 10 kilo weight difference.
I was 199 pounds. I got the flu from Ken's kids in training. I took four bags of fluids with me because I was so sick and dehydrated."
The fight b4, vs Shoji, Guy came in @ 200 lbs [no flu, no short notice, no 'official' injury, even though he
seemed to have a problem since he didnt use his right kick...]
He then fought 1 month later against Brad Jones, @ Pure Action 2 [USA]. > I have no info on his weight.
[Note: this fight seems to dismiss the possibility of a foot injury in the SAKU fight...]
The next fight was against Masaaki Satake, 2 months later > Normal preparation, Weight = 203 lbs.
Now, the infamous 10 Kg criteria = 22 lbs.
The difference between Guy´s claim and SAKU´s weight = 16 lbs.
I´ve always considered Mezger a no-nonsense fighter, pretty reliable.
I see no reason to doubt him, but it´s indeed hard to believe that he came in @ his usual 200 lbs weight,
with such a chaotic preparation and on short notice.
And the whole controversy is pretty much about those 6 lbs...
As Quadros said:
"They still had that 10kg handicapping [mentality].
Let's say a fighter was 10 kilos or more lighter than another fighter.
He already had a point in the round, so you basically had to beat him more than someone your own size."
7/ Negative Points – Yellow Cards:
> NONE here.
II- Aftermath:
Note: Matt Hume was one of the Judges (he knew the Lion´s Den crew since the Pancrase days...).
He claimed that "We knew nothing about that. I don't doubt Ken had an agreement with them. What he claimed he was told was that it would be one round"
This is what Guy said after the fight:[21 July 2001]
Reporter : Has Pride ever approached you about doing a work?
Guy Mezger : "No, pride had never asked me to work a match."
Reporter : You fought Sakuraba in the Pride Grand Prix, opening round. The fight was only scheduled to be
1, 15 minute round. Yet at the end of the first round Pride attempted to add another round, do you believe
they tried to rob you?
Guy Mezger : "Rob me, no."
To prove that Im keepin´ it real, gonna add the rest of the interview:
"Shitting themselves because they were expecting me to lose and when I did not, it was going to screw up
the Hoyce/Sak match, which is a bigger sell in Japan. I think the match maker and high ups were not on the
same page."
> He naturally defended his win, but confirmed that he felt there was no hobbery.
Later, he added:
Mezger: "Mainly, I felt like they were just disorganized.
I didn't know I was going to fight Masaaki Satake until 18 days before the fight. Their take was, "If you're a real warrior, you'll do it." I go, "Really? OK. All right." "
CONCLUSION: Consequently, what happened?
Mismanagement:
> Pride was still a rookie Org., this [OW] GP was their 1st, and they had to deal with several agendas
[see the SAKU vs Hoyce fight configuration later, with no time limit...during a one night tournament (!?) ]...
> Mezger took this fight on short notice, while he was sick [flu], and had [maybe] an injured foot (Mezger
confirmed the flu [got it from Ken´s kids], and that he was recovering from a kidney problem but not the injury, in his post-fight interviews).
He realistically shouldnt have taken it (was offered 6 figures though..).
Even SAKU wasnt interested in this fight, claimin´that Mezger´s style was "boring"...
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/#post-144836697
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/#post-149993595
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-21-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/#post-151708171
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/#post-144836697
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/#post-149993595
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-21-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/#post-151708171
Last edited: