.223 vs .308 in combat situation

[Chesten_Hesten]

Designated Marksman Rifle

Oh yeah. This I'm aware of. Thanks

 

[sub_thug]

Designated Marksman Rifle. A DMR would be given to a guy in a squad to give that squad a bit more reach without having to delegate a sniper to that formation. Snipers are basically company assets so they exist in numbers that dont allow them to operate on a per squad level.

In a conventional unit, snipers were a battalion-level asset for the Army. Getting snipers assigned for a mission was virtually impossible. We could really only field about 2-3 sniper teams for 4 maneuver companies. Plus, they would also run their own missions. DMRs were game-changers! It was nice being able to provide your own overwatch with organic assets.

 

[rmongler]

In a conventional unit, snipers were a battalion-level asset for the Army. Getting snipers assigned for a mission was virtually impossible. We could really only field about 2-3 sniper teams for 4 maneuver companies. Plus, they would also run their own missions. DMRs were game-changers! It was nice being able to provide your own overwatch with organic assets.

Would you say it is vital for DMs to also have roughly similar levels of ease in CQB as everyone with a standard rifle, or would it be over all more effective if they are more specialized for their role with longer reaching cartridges?

My own feeling is that if you start talking about adding a new round to the logistics chain, you may as well go whole hog with something that's as far as you can get from your intermediate round, while still man portable (so something in the lapmag to cheytac range).

But I recall a conversation once about the new long range 25mm grenade launcher, where one guy raised a point that its a trade off with one less trigger puller if you need to go room to room.

Would that mean something like winchester short magnums are the ideal? Or maybe its all a big red herring, and the real answer is commando mortars.

 

[sub_thug]

Would you say it is vital for DMs to also have roughly similar levels of ease in CQB as everyone with a standard rifle, or would it be over all more effective if they are more specialized for their role with longer reaching cartridges?

My own feeling is that if you start talking about adding a new round to the logistics chain, you may as well go whole hog with something that's as far as you can get from your intermediate round, while still man portable (so something in the lapmag to cheytac range).

But I recall a conversation once about the new long range 25mm grenade launcher, where one guy raised a point that its a trade off with one less trigger puller if you need to go room to room.

Would that mean something like winchester short magnums are the ideal? Or maybe its all a big red herring, and the real answer is commando mortars.

You raise some great points about specificity versus dynamic equipment/weapons systems.

Ultimately, I think the determining factors are, and will always be, the mission variables. Mission, Enemy, Time, Troops (AKA Friendlies), Terrain, and Civil considerations. The way you'd want to equip and employ a DM in the mountains in a traditional force-on-force fight is very different than employing one during a counterinsurgency mission where the enemy is indistinguishable from the local population. So what's the profile of the operations in front of you? I'll get off my soapbox now...

Since you mentioned CQB concerns, I think it's fair to assume that you're talking about a theater like Iraq, where city-based conflict was the norm. My personal feelings is that you should view each man as an asset AND enabler. I know that the military doesn't seem to agree with that mentality, but I think that they're foolish not to adopt this across the force. In the conventional force, the Army has some infantry guys, a medic, and a forward observer in a rifle platoon. The medic and FO are typically not manning the machine guns, nor are they DMs. Until they are utilized for their intended purposes, they are totally underutilized. As a former medical guy, I can also tell you that these types of soldiers do not get the training they need to keep up with their infantry counterparts, and therefore, are not effective assets as shooters. Then you look at an SF ODA, where there are two medics and two commo guys. You know who makes for a great SOTAC (like a JTAC, but not Joint-qualified)? One of your commo guys. The smartest man with the radio is given that radio as a weapon to call in fire support. Those medics can make great snipers, especially considering that if they are applying medical aid, your sniper rifles may not be the best platform to shoot from anymore.

Applying the above concept back to the DM, I think in terms of making the guy as modular as possible. In a CQB scenario, this guy would be well-served to just use a platform like a SCAR-H with a 16-20" barrel. It's not the best thing to do CQB with, but it's definitely a viable platform. If you use the 16" barrel, you're really not talking about a weapons system that is more difficult to wield than a standard M4 that's given to a regular trooper. He can fight with his unit through the objective, and if they do a bottom-up clear, you can leave your platoon's DMs on the rooftop or in a window to set great security as a cordon collapses back on foot to the building for consolidation and extraction. You can layer that security with your organic machine guns, using the big guns to cover down the roads around the building. The DMs can start scanning for individuals approaching on foot and scanning windows, looking for something that stands out/is hostile. If you don't have DMs, you will need to a different scheme of security. If you give those guys bolt-action rifles like you'd give an honest sniper, they won't be useful as guns when they move through the target (getting to your point about trading capabilities).

Hopefully, somewhere in there, you saw the point that I was trying to make...

 

[GearSolidMetal]

What's the exact weight of a round of .223 and .308?

 

[Gregolian]

What's the exact weight of a round of .223 and .308?

Depends. .223/5.56 can range from 55 grains to 62 grains and sometimes 65 and higher.

.308 can be from 150-165-175 I think on the high end.

 

[Roaming East]

You raise some great points about specificity versus dynamic equipment/weapons systems.

Ultimately, I think the determining factors are, and will always be, the mission variables. Mission, Enemy, Time, Troops (AKA Friendlies), Terrain, and Civil considerations. The way you'd want to equip and employ a DM in the mountains in a traditional force-on-force fight is very different than employing one during a counterinsurgency mission where the enemy is indistinguishable from the local population. So what's the profile of the operations in front of you? I'll get off my soapbox now...

Since you mentioned CQB concerns, I think it's fair to assume that you're talking about a theater like Iraq, where city-based conflict was the norm. My personal feelings is that you should view each man as an asset AND enabler. I know that the military doesn't seem to agree with that mentality, but I think that they're foolish not to adopt this across the force. In the conventional force, the Army has some infantry guys, a medic, and a forward observer in a rifle platoon. The medic and FO are typically not manning the machine guns, nor are they DMs. Until they are utilized for their intended purposes, they are totally underutilized. As a former medical guy, I can also tell you that these types of soldiers do not get the training they need to keep up with their infantry counterparts, and therefore, are not effective assets as shooters. Then you look at an SF ODA, where there are two medics and two commo guys. You know who makes for a great SOTAC (like a JTAC, but not Joint-qualified)? One of your commo guys. The smartest man with the radio is given that radio as a weapon to call in fire support. Those medics can make great snipers, especially considering that if they are applying medical aid, your sniper rifles may not be the best platform to shoot from anymore.

Applying the above concept back to the DM, I think in terms of making the guy as modular as possible. In a CQB scenario, this guy would be well-served to just use a platform like a SCAR-H with a 16-20" barrel. It's not the best thing to do CQB with, but it's definitely a viable platform. If you use the 16" barrel, you're really not talking about a weapons system that is more difficult to wield than a standard M4 that's given to a regular trooper. He can fight with his unit through the objective, and if they do a bottom-up clear, you can leave your platoon's DMs on the rooftop or in a window to set great security as a cordon collapses back on foot to the building for consolidation and extraction. You can layer that security with your organic machine guns, using the big guns to cover down the roads around the building. The DMs can start scanning for individuals approaching on foot and scanning windows, looking for something that stands out/is hostile. If you don't have DMs, you will need to a different scheme of security. If you give those guys bolt-action rifles like you'd give an honest sniper, they won't be useful as guns when they move through the target (getting to your point about trading capabilities).

Hopefully, somewhere in there, you saw the point that I was trying to make...

You make a lot of good points about assets being under utilized. I was combat weather for 6 of my 10 years in the military. Went to a bunch of high speed schools just to basically baby sit equipment at a FOB somewhere. They've made so many changes to that career field its hard to keep up since i separated.

 

[Gregolian]

You make a lot of good points about assets being under utilized. I was combat weather for 6 of my 10 years in the military. Went to a bunch of high speed schools just to basically baby sit equipment at a FOB somewhere. They've made so many changes to that career field its hard to keep up since i separated.

I hear weather and an MOS and all I can think of is this:


Sorry.

 

[Roaming East]

I hear weather and an MOS and all I can think of is this:


Sorry.

Lol, screw you. i can read a Skew-T under fire at night with my NVG's like a boss.

 

[Gregolian]

Lol, screw you. i can read a Skew-T under fire at night with my NVG's like a boss.

I'll be honest, never served but fuck if Mat Best's vids don't remind me of like all my friends that did and that damn clip is from the first vid of his I ever saw.

 

[sub_thug]

You make a lot of good points about assets being under utilized. I was combat weather for 6 of my 10 years in the military. Went to a bunch of high speed schools just to basically baby sit equipment at a FOB somewhere. They've made so many changes to that career field its hard to keep up since i separated.

Thanks. I'm definitely big on applying the Principles of Warfare to everything that we do. One of them is Economy of Force. Therefore, I try to apply some business acumen and consider things like utilization rates. In order to maximize the effects on a target, we should therefore maximize our capabilities on the same objective. I think we think too often of equipment there. I used to sit in briefings with peers, many of whom just started talking about adding machine guns and heavy fighting vehicles when they start talking about increased capabilities. I just sat there thinking, "Dude, could you be any more in the box? You're not talking about increasing training, Platoon Leader. You're just talking about getting more stuff with money that we don't have. We don't even control the purse strings." It was complete insanity. Everything was by the numbers, never dynamic, and no one ever fulfilled multiple roles to create redundancies. Conventional Army is terrible about this, and I know that the Marines use a similar doctrinal approach.

We can do so much more if we start thinking about each man as an enabler. Got a new rifleman? Cross train him with some engineers, teach him some stuff about breaching and demolitions, and make him knowledgeable about explosives. Have your experienced guys go train with some snipers and recon guys, teaching them the trade. When you plan on conducting the tactical task of "raid" on a building or village, you should set your support and blocking positions first. Snipers and recon guys know this stuff better than anyone, so let your experienced guys become assets. The assaulters know different stuff, so let them train on different stuff. Instead, we famously under-utilize guys so that they can perform tasks like gate guard, mowing grass, and other dumb stuff that doesn't matter.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

Depends. .223/5.56 can range from 55 grains to 62 grains and sometimes 65 and higher.

.308 can be from 150-165-175 I think on the high end.

This factor may change my opinion.

In CQB, like in an urban area, I'd rather have a more magazines of .223, each with 30 rounds, than fewer with magazines of .308 with 20 rounds.

I can imagine reloading in a stressful situation could be a bitch.

And those added ounces, turn to pounds, equates pain, and loss of mobility and endurance.

 

[Protectandserve]

Some quick Googlefu shows a 30 Rd m4 magazine weighs a pound . A 20 round M14/M1A magazine weighs 1.6 pounds. So 10 mag combat load weighs about 10lbs with an M4 and gives you 300 Rds. A 10 mag combat load with an M14 gives you 200 rounds at 16lbs.

So you are short 100rounds and carrying six pounds more. If you carry 300 rounds of 308 you need 5 more magazines and another 8 lbs for a total of 14lbs more weight compared to 5.56.

 

[Gregolian]

Some quick Googlefu shows a 30 Rd m4 magazine weighs a pound . A 20 round M14/M1A magazine weighs 1.6 pounds. So 10 mag combat load weighs about 10lbs with an M4 and gives you 300 Rds. A 10 mag combat load with an M14 gives you 200 rounds at 16lbs.

So you are short 100rounds and carrying six pounds more. If you carry 300 rounds of 308 you need 5 more magazines and another 8 lbs for a total of 14lbs more weight compared to 5.56.

This is why I think my idea of the SHTF rifle being my second AR-15 (go into that build in a second) with either my dad's Winchester .300WinMag or my Weatherby Vanguard S2 in 30-06 isn't a bad idea.

AR-15 will be a Spikes lower, some sort of upper (kinda want a VLTOR), CTR stock, Ergo grip, TacticalSht trigger, Midway M-LOK hand guard, stubby grip from BCM, and then a good but light barrel. Carry the ammo for the Winchester or Weatherby in one of those stock stretchy ammo holders on the gun stock and maybe a wrist carrier like what Cooper wore when he portrayed Chris Kyle.

I'd probably take the Weatherby. Lose some power BUT, it's synthetic so lighter than the Walnut stock on the Winchester.