.223 vs .308 in combat situation

I'd take the 5.56 most days. Put them where it matters.
 
It depends on the environment and likely how frequently I could access more ammo if/when I ran out.

5.56 - close quarters, urban street level, dense jungle/forest (mainly flat)

.308 - long range, urban elevated position, desert, wooded with variable topography
 
Yeah, this really depends on what the mission profile looks like, the terrain, and what your personal duties will be on that mission.
 
Id only take a .308 if it was in a DMR setup. i wouldnt give up the capacity, handling, weight, or shootability of a 5.56 for marginally better performance at ranges i dont intend to engage at.
 
All depends on the person, what are you most comfortable with. I've got a decent selection and the first gun I'd grab is a 22-250 because that's what I shoot the most. But I already live in the country, urban environment definitely a 5.56x45mm in an AR platform.
 
In most situations, .308 is the superior round.

-More damage (a shot to the body is practically a guaranteed kill).
-Longer range without significant bullet drop.
-Goes through most lighter body armors.
-Far more damaging to light vehicles.

As for the downsides, as stated, carrying multiple magazines (especially 30 round magazines) is an inconvenience. It makes the rifle heavier, where ounces matter the most.

In most situations, the advantages of .308 highly outweigh (pardon the pun) the disadvantages.

It's similar to the argument of .40 versus 9mm. But in that case, I prefer 9mm. Range is less of a factor, weight (in grams) has an increased significance, and if you're in a distance to be able to land a shot once, an injured target is much easier to land a second and third shot. Also, my preferred handgun, glocks, hold 17 rounds of 9mm, as opposed to 10 rounds of .40.
 
The only guy to take an M14 with him over the CAR-15 was Randy Shugart. From many accounts, he was making the right call, given that the "green tips" were passing right through the Somalis that weren't wearing any armor.

These days, it really depends on the situation. There's no "magic bullet" approach.
 
sub_thug said:
The only guy to take an M14 with him over the CAR-15 was Randy Shugart. From many accounts, he was making the right call, given that the "green tips" were passing right through the Somalis that weren't wearing any armor.

These days, it really depends on the situation. There's no "magic bullet" approach.
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oddly said then. If the failing of the M4 in Mogadishu was the 5.56 over penetrating, the ball ammo the M14 would use would have the exact same issue. The 5.56 at least has the benefit of violent fragmentation going for it as far as terminal effectiveness goes. The 7.62 NATO wouldnt even get that. it would ice pick just the same as the 5.56 at the stated engagement ranges since it would basically being going at roughly the same velocity.

at the end of the day, either cartridge is only going to be marginal at 1 shot stops if you arent hitting a vital area. As was determined then, and has been backed up recently with the wars in iraq and a-stan, it doesnt matter what you're shooting so long as you're shooting it well. dont get pissy at your M4 because your half assed extremity hit didnt put a tango in the dirt. i've seen guys get hit with a 240 bravo and keep sprinting.
 
Wasn't a big reason Shugart carried the M14 because he had been in long enough it was the gun he had trained on and was more familiar with?
 
Roaming East said:
oddly said then. If the failing of the M4 in Mogadishu was the 5.56 over penetrating, the ball ammo the M14 would use would have the exact same issue. The 5.56 at least has the benefit of violent fragmentation going for it as far as terminal effectiveness goes. The 7.62 NATO wouldnt even get that. it would ice pick just the same as the 5.56 at the stated engagement ranges since it would basically being going at roughly the same velocity.

at the end of the day, either cartridge is only going to be marginal at 1 shot stops if you arent hitting a vital area. As was determined then, and has been backed up recently with the wars in iraq and a-stan, it doesnt matter what you're shooting so long as you're shooting it well. dont get pissy at your M4 because your half assed extremity hit didnt put a tango in the dirt. i've seen guys get hit with a 240 bravo and keep sprinting.
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Not necessarily. It depends on the metals that the slug was made out of. We all know what the green tips are, but what of the 7.62 slugs that Randy was using on Oct 3, 1993? I don't pretend to know exactly what ammo he was using. What I can tell you is that the accounts of guys like MSG(R) Paul Howe said that Randy was putting guys down with one shot. Maybe he is right, maybe he is wrong. I don't know, I wasn't there.

I've seen similar things. Adrenaline has extremely powerful effects on the body, as do drugs. Not for a second do I possess disdain for the M4 as a battle rifle. Even in inhospitable conditions like the ones we faced in Iraq, mine was always extremely reliable. The 5.56 round was always effective as well, so no issues here. Of course, I would have liked a little more flexibility when I was in certain locations, conducting certain operations. I think if we were going to be conducting a raid at night off of an offset (meaning long, quiet infil), it would have been awesome to run subsonic .300 blackout in a suppressed weapon, probably with a 10.5" barrel. If the objective is known to be an urban environment with short engagements, the maneuverability and relative silence of that setup would have offered a long term tactical advantage. We could go in, but our target without alerting the neighbors, and then take more time to perform sensitive site exploitation without fear of enemy in the area either scattering away like cockroaches under our noses or, if things really got crazy, having them mass against us. An impromptu defense would not have made for a fun night. Anyways, like I said, operational flexibility is key. Know the mission profile, and THEN tailor your gear to what you're doing. Too many fanboys want to pick the coolest stuff and then apply it to whatever. Anyways, I'll get off my soapbox now. Cheers!
 
Gregolian said:
Wasn't a big reason Shugart carried the M14 because he had been in long enough it was the gun he had trained on and was more familiar with?
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Most of those guys came up on the M14. It kicks like a mule and is a heavier round. He was just smart enough to accept those negatives for the yield he got from it, I guess.
 
sub_thug said:
Most of those guys came up on the M14. It kicks like a mule and is a heavier round. He was just smart enough to accept those negatives for the yield he got from it, I guess.
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no they didnt. That battle was in 93. The the M14 was phased out in the 60's. Not a single troop involved in that battle 'came up' with anything other than the M16. The oldest soldier in action was 45. and he was a pilot. Everyone else wouldnt have been old enough to have enlisted while the M14 was even remotely in general service. The only guys who would have had any real trigger time on the M14 after roughly 68 would have been Snipers with the M21 platform. and by 93 they would have been too old for combat since even that was replaced in the mid 80's.
 
sub_thug said:
Not necessarily. It depends on the metals that the slug was made out of. We all know what the green tips are, but what of the 7.62 slugs that Randy was using on Oct 3, 1993? I don't pretend to know exactly what ammo he was using. What I can tell you is that the accounts of guys like MSG(R) Paul Howe said that Randy was putting guys down with one shot. Maybe he is right, maybe he is wrong. I don't know, I wasn't there.

I've seen similar things. Adrenaline has extremely powerful effects on the body, as do drugs. Not for a second do I possess disdain for the M4 as a battle rifle. Even in inhospitable conditions like the ones we faced in Iraq, mine was always extremely reliable. The 5.56 round was always effective as well, so no issues here. Of course, I would have liked a little more flexibility when I was in certain locations, conducting certain operations. I think if we were going to be conducting a raid at night off of an offset (meaning long, quiet infil), it would have been awesome to run subsonic .300 blackout in a suppressed weapon, probably with a 10.5" barrel. If the objective is known to be an urban environment with short engagements, the maneuverability and relative silence of that setup would have offered a long term tactical advantage. We could go in, but our target without alerting the neighbors, and then take more time to perform sensitive site exploitation without fear of enemy in the area either scattering away like cockroaches under our noses or, if things really got crazy, having them mass against us. An impromptu defense would not have made for a fun night. Anyways, like I said, operational flexibility is key. Know the mission profile, and THEN tailor your gear to what you're doing. Too many fanboys want to pick the coolest stuff and then apply it to whatever. Anyways, I'll get off my soapbox now. Cheers!
Click to expand...

Im thinking that the fact he was a trained sniper shooting a weapon with an optic would count for his individual success more than anything. But assuming that every other swinging dick that day would have been as proficient is a bit of a stretch. Just as much of a stretch as saying had he had an optic equipped M4/16 he would have done just as well or perhaps better since his ammo loadout would have lasted longer. Account was he had transitioned to his pistol before being killed. indicative of another one of the shortcomings of using a .308 as a primary infantry weapon.
 
Roaming East said:
no they didnt. That battle was in 93. The the M14 was phased out in the 60's. Not a single troop involved in that battle 'came up' with anything other than the M16. The oldest soldier in action was 45. and he was a pilot. Everyone else wouldnt have been old enough to have enlisted while the M14 was even remotely in general service. The only guys who would have had any real trigger time on the M14 after roughly 68 would have been Snipers with the M21 platform. and by 93 they would have been too old for combat since even that was replaced in the mid 80's.
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We still have M14's in the inventory today. USASOC still uses them.
 
Roaming East said:
Im thinking that the fact he was a trained sniper shooting a weapon with an optic would count for his individual success more than anything. But assuming that every other swinging dick that day would have been as proficient is a bit of a stretch. Just as much of a stretch as saying had he had an optic equipped M4/16 he would have done just as well or perhaps better since his ammo loadout would have lasted longer. Account was he had transitioned to his pistol before being killed. indicative of another one of the shortcomings of using a .308 as a primary infantry weapon.
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CAG has lots of good shooters. Although undoubtedly talented, I don't know if SFC Shugart was the best shooter on the field that day. According to MSG Howe's accounts, however, SFC Shugart was especially effective there. MSG Howe credits it to the platform that SFC Shugart was using. Who am I to argue with him? And besides, I am merely conveying what someone who was there said. I'm not saying that the .308 is the superior round in all situations. I'd personally take an M4 over a SCAR-H in most situations any day of the week for a variety of reasons.
 
sub_thug said:
We still have M14's in the inventory today. USASOC still uses them.
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indeed. Specialized troops in a specialized command use them for specialized purposes. But your average 11B has as much experience with an M14 as he does with M1 garand. Come to think of it, considering the number of ceremonial units at bases, i think there are more Garands in service in the military than M14's lol.
 
Roaming East said:
indeed. Specialized troops in a specialized command use them for specialized purposes. But your average 11B has as much experience with an M14 as he does with M1 garand. Come to think of it, considering the number of ceremonial units at bases, i think there are more Garands in service in the military than M14's lol.
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Oh yeah. Your standard 11-series guy only gets to touch the basic inventory. Oh well, haha. Sucks to suck.
 
When selecting ordnance, there are two major questions to answer:

A. can it reach the distances I need?
and
B. can it penetrate the target I need at that distance?

Once these parameters are met, questions of weight and economy become the next most important factors.

Under these metrics, 5.56 Nato is superior to 7.62 Nato in most every situation typical of small unit tactics, and hence is a superior choice for standard issue.


Personally speaking, I believe 6mm AR/BR cartridges have the most ideal balance of features for an intermediate rifle, but for off the shelf solutions, 5.56 is the way to go.
 
Chesten_Hesten said:
What's a DMR?
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Designated Marksman Rifle. A DMR would be given to a guy in a squad to give that squad a bit more reach without having to delegate a sniper to that formation. Snipers are basically company assets so they exist in numbers that dont allow them to operate on a per squad level.
 
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