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chokingvictim
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Matt Thornton
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Yeah, it's cool when you can pull one off. I think I've only gotten one 2 or 3 times, even though I go for them a lot. When guys get in my open guard, I instinctively go for that spin-under knee bar; I really should drill other open guard moves more. It's cool when you can actually get them.
If you feel like you're good at knee bars, drill them some more. Get good at those. You want to be well-versed in submissions, but you need bread-and-butter moves for competition. The thing I've noticed is that when you think your go-to moves aren't working anymore, it's usually because guys in the gym are getting used to how you roll. Work on creating more setups for those moves, but don't give up on them.
Example: My go-to moves, in the past, have typically been triangle choke, toehold, rear naked choke, and armbar from mount. Before, it was rare for me to get submissions from any other move (except heel hooks). In the gym, guys KNEW I was going for triangle chokes, and they knew as soon as I started touching their legs, I was going for a toehold (what I love about the toehold is, like the kimura, it can be done from almost any position). So a lot of the time, they'd defend it. I would think, shit, I used to get that move all the time, why isn't it working anymore?
My first ever competition, I went 4-1 for the day, competing in 2 divisions. (The picture in my avatar is me in that competition). The 4 fights that I won, I finished by submissions. Wanna guess which ones? Rear naked choke, armbar from mount, toehold, triangle choke, respectively. If you have those fall-back moves, then when you try new stuff, at least you have something to go to.
The entire point behind this post wasn't to toot my own horn (I really need to get in more competition anyways), but to make a point that if you find you're naturally good at something, you do want to strengthen your weak areas, but improve that strong area, too. I've always found I'm naturally good at leglocks for some reason. I was hitting them when I only knew extremely basic (sometimes incorrect) methods of hitting leglocks. Now that I've actually been studying them, and learning good setups, my leglocks are becoming unstoppable. You hit a kneebar on an upper belt. That's a tough move to hit. If you like kneebars, learn more about them. Study set-ups, study flow moves.
In fact, Stephan Kesting sells an awesome DVD on kneebars.
http://www.grapplearts.com/Kneebar-Info.htm
I hear lots of good things about it. The cool thing with kneebars is that there's so many transitions to them and between them. If you can master the toehold, the heelhook in your neck, the kneebar, and the knee pinch, right there is an unstoppable lockflow once you grab onto someone's leg.
Awesome lock flow for legs that everyone should know:
1) Fall "back" (really to your side) for a footlock/achilles hold, or a heelhook.
2) He straightens his leg, preventing you from doing those moves. Sink your weight down closer to his hips, and put the outer edge of his toes (his pinky toe and blade of his foot) in the side of your neck. Grip his heel and crank.
3) If he rolls, and you weren't squeezing with your knees, he just put himself in a kneebar.
4a) If he bent his leg somehow, toehold. If he straightens it, kneebar.
4b) If he figure 4'ed his legs to defend the kneebar, toehold the far foot; the one you weren't kneebarring. If he straightens that to defend it, he just let go of the figure 4. Go back to the kneebar.
4c) If he figure 4'ed his legs, figure 4 YOUR legs around that kneebar leg, while keeping your wrist in the pit of his knee. Knee pinch submission.
As long as you keep your knees pinched tight, he's bound to tap to one of those.
If you feel like you're good at knee bars, drill them some more. Get good at those. You want to be well-versed in submissions, but you need bread-and-butter moves for competition. The thing I've noticed is that when you think your go-to moves aren't working anymore, it's usually because guys in the gym are getting used to how you roll. Work on creating more setups for those moves, but don't give up on them.
Example: My go-to moves, in the past, have typically been triangle choke, toehold, rear naked choke, and armbar from mount. Before, it was rare for me to get submissions from any other move (except heel hooks). In the gym, guys KNEW I was going for triangle chokes, and they knew as soon as I started touching their legs, I was going for a toehold (what I love about the toehold is, like the kimura, it can be done from almost any position). So a lot of the time, they'd defend it. I would think, shit, I used to get that move all the time, why isn't it working anymore?
My first ever competition, I went 4-1 for the day, competing in 2 divisions. (The picture in my avatar is me in that competition). The 4 fights that I won, I finished by submissions. Wanna guess which ones? Rear naked choke, armbar from mount, toehold, triangle choke, respectively. If you have those fall-back moves, then when you try new stuff, at least you have something to go to.
The entire point behind this post wasn't to toot my own horn (I really need to get in more competition anyways), but to make a point that if you find you're naturally good at something, you do want to strengthen your weak areas, but improve that strong area, too. I've always found I'm naturally good at leglocks for some reason. I was hitting them when I only knew extremely basic (sometimes incorrect) methods of hitting leglocks. Now that I've actually been studying them, and learning good setups, my leglocks are becoming unstoppable. You hit a kneebar on an upper belt. That's a tough move to hit. If you like kneebars, learn more about them. Study set-ups, study flow moves.
In fact, Stephan Kesting sells an awesome DVD on kneebars.
http://www.grapplearts.com/Kneebar-Info.htm
I hear lots of good things about it. The cool thing with kneebars is that there's so many transitions to them and between them. If you can master the toehold, the heelhook in your neck, the kneebar, and the knee pinch, right there is an unstoppable lockflow once you grab onto someone's leg.
Awesome lock flow for legs that everyone should know:
1) Fall "back" (really to your side) for a footlock/achilles hold, or a heelhook.
2) He straightens his leg, preventing you from doing those moves. Sink your weight down closer to his hips, and put the outer edge of his toes (his pinky toe and blade of his foot) in the side of your neck. Grip his heel and crank.
3) If he rolls, and you weren't squeezing with your knees, he just put himself in a kneebar.
4a) If he bent his leg somehow, toehold. If he straightens it, kneebar.
4b) If he figure 4'ed his legs to defend the kneebar, toehold the far foot; the one you weren't kneebarring. If he straightens that to defend it, he just let go of the figure 4. Go back to the kneebar.
4c) If he figure 4'ed his legs, figure 4 YOUR legs around that kneebar leg, while keeping your wrist in the pit of his knee. Knee pinch submission.
As long as you keep your knees pinched tight, he's bound to tap to one of those.
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chokingvictim
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^^ Thanks, awesome post. I think my g/f is actually getting me a 2 dvd set that was put out by Vincent Fields.
http://www.warrior-one.com/warrior-one/dvd.html
I definitely have always liked leg locks, and I like the idea of having a lot of variety with my submissions. I have yet to see anyone do a leg submission on anyone at our lessons, so I want to improve them on my own since our instructor doesn't show them very often.
http://www.warrior-one.com/warrior-one/dvd.html
I definitely have always liked leg locks, and I like the idea of having a lot of variety with my submissions. I have yet to see anyone do a leg submission on anyone at our lessons, so I want to improve them on my own since our instructor doesn't show them very often.
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Iceman: thanks for the plug. I agree with you - I think that kneebar DVD is pretty good too ;-)
If you want there are some additional (free) kneebar resources check these out: www.grapplearts.com/Kneebar-Mastery.htm and www.grapplearts.com/Kneebar-Q&A.htm
Happy Leglocking
Stephan Kesting
www.grapplearts.com
If you want there are some additional (free) kneebar resources check these out: www.grapplearts.com/Kneebar-Mastery.htm and www.grapplearts.com/Kneebar-Q&A.htm
Happy Leglocking
Stephan Kesting
www.grapplearts.com
Matt Thornton
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chokingvictim said:
Those DVDs RULE. You will have a fun time with those things. They've already improved my leg locks so much. I've only memorized the very basics, but they'll be helping me as I progress through grappling. The stuff gets pretty advanced.
Stephan, no problem. I'm still blabbering endlessly on these forums about how good your grappling drills DVD is. At my gym, on Sundays, doing drills off that DVD has become the new weekly thing.
I'm interested in that omoplata DVD. How applicable is it to no-gi and MMA? Also, that Yoga DVD looks pretty sweet.
Also, Denis Kang's DVD looks pretty good.
dutchmasterj3
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knee bars scare me
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sounds to me like you may perhaps be a little too concerned about who is what belt
and what you can do against them.
also its very ez to get addicted to tapping people out, & it can totally hinder your
growth so becareful.
and what you can do against them.
also its very ez to get addicted to tapping people out, & it can totally hinder your
growth so becareful.
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chokingvictim
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kneebars hurt like shit!
but i've had trouble applying them. a cupple of times now i got the leg, thought i was doing everything right but the guy just said it didn't hurt at all. what's the most common mistake people do when kneebarring or better yet what should i really focus on?
edit: ok im stupid, the links above explain stuff perfectly. thanks.
but i've had trouble applying them. a cupple of times now i got the leg, thought i was doing everything right but the guy just said it didn't hurt at all. what's the most common mistake people do when kneebarring or better yet what should i really focus on?
edit: ok im stupid, the links above explain stuff perfectly. thanks.
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ok chokingvictim, I was just speculating, glad that your not.
randomg1t,
I think many people when they apply pressure straighten themselves out
without securing their hip onto the leg, so they just slide vertically along the leg
rather than base on the upper knee and pull the lower part of the leg against the
knee joing.
so make sure you really tighten your legs and dont move your hips vertically along
the leg once you begin to apply pressure.
randomg1t,
I think many people when they apply pressure straighten themselves out
without securing their hip onto the leg, so they just slide vertically along the leg
rather than base on the upper knee and pull the lower part of the leg against the
knee joing.
so make sure you really tighten your legs and dont move your hips vertically along
the leg once you begin to apply pressure.
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Iceman - the Omo Plata videos are slightly more gi-oriented than the rest of my videos, which is to say that perhaps 35% of the material is easier to pull off if you have gis on. The rest of the material is cross-platform (which is to say, applicable equally to both gi and no gi).
I use the omo plata a lot when I am sparring MMA - in the guard you basically have to hold his head down anyhow in order not to get smoked, which means that his arms are often in the correct position. As is case for a lot of MMA stuff though, you have even fewer high percentage setups and finishishes than for submission grappling, but that doesn't mean that the technique is no good.
Stephan Kesting
www.grapplearts.com
I use the omo plata a lot when I am sparring MMA - in the guard you basically have to hold his head down anyhow in order not to get smoked, which means that his arms are often in the correct position. As is case for a lot of MMA stuff though, you have even fewer high percentage setups and finishishes than for submission grappling, but that doesn't mean that the technique is no good.
Stephan Kesting
www.grapplearts.com
bjjfighter91
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haha good job but i dont thikn you should be getting this exited over it.
Yeah I hate kneebars. We were rolling no-gi a couple days ago and I slapped on an achilles lock and he defended by rolling, so I went for a toehold and I stupidly forgot about my leg and he rolled into a sweet kneebar. I tapped instantly, I'm not going to fight that shit.
And Iceman, why did you put a can-opener on that poor kid!
And Iceman, why did you put a can-opener on that poor kid!
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Bama Zulu - Good call on tapping quickly! There are lots of counters, but your options become progressively less the further along his attack is an the straighter he has your knee. The best thing to help you refine your counters and awareness of kneebars is to learn and practice a few basic kneebar attacks yourself, say kneebar from half guard top, half guard bottom, and open guard bottom. I'm not saying that you need to be an expert at them, but rather become familiar with them. Once you know those you will become much more aware when someone is trying to do them to you
Good luck
Stephan Kesting
www.grapplearts.com
Good luck
Stephan Kesting
www.grapplearts.com
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RizRan
Guest
Nice job. I tapped a Ninjitsu BB with a knee bar once. Its an effective leg lock. Borken knee means alot
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Gavin LeFever
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bad juju to pull moves you've never been taught.
it's likely your instructor has been holding off on those moves for a reason.
it's likely your instructor has been holding off on those moves for a reason.
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That's a cool move, but is quite a separate technique from the 'traditional' kneebar. The setups, counters and recounters are completely different, and even the body mechanics aren't very similar. I love it though, because even if you don't get the kneebar (which I call the 'face-in-crotch kneebar' for lack of a better name) you will likely be able to pass the guard
Stephan kesting
www.grapplearts.com
Stephan kesting
www.grapplearts.com
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chokingvictim
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Matt Thornton
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Bama Zulu said:
Haha, actually I wasn't really doing a can-opener. I was baiting and just making him uncomfortable. At the time of that competition, my guard breaks weren't all that great. When I passed guard it usually came as a result of a submission defense. So a lot of the time what I would do is bait for submissions. I'd intentionally put a hand in between his legs and wait for a triangle, or reach high and wait for the armbar. Worked well for me, but as I started rolling with guys who were better, I had to start learning better ways to break and pass guard.
